Finola Howard (00:02.956)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Your Truth Shared. And I want to read today's guests LinkedIn descriptor, which I never do. But I went to confirm, you know, how they like to be spoken about, all that kind of stuff. And then I went, no, I'm reading this straight out because I love it. Today we're going to meet Katie Skelton, who actually describes herself as a massive email weirdo. Weirdo, sorry.
I dare you to read my emails for 30 days. If you don't learn something that increases revenue, happiness, or marketing skills as a business owner, you can block me. Become a subscriber below. I love that. Welcome, Katie.
Katie Skelton (00:45.719)
Thank you, please don't block me. I kind of mean it, but not when I'm talking to you, so please don't block me.
Finola Howard (00:47.374)
hahahahah
no, but I wouldn't block you. The reason I invited you today, well, I wanted to talk about email. We haven't spoken about email on this podcast yet and it's really important. It's everywhere it's cited as being the place where the conversion happens. Okay. And I think most people don't believe that that's true. So I thought who better than to speak to us than you. But we tried to do this podcast a long time ago. We were just chatting about that now and
The reason, and I think it's really great that we're actually only doing it now, because you made a shift in your business to decide to send, you shifted, like pivoted in your business. It was always email, but you pivoted away towards writing emails every day, which is against, you know, inverted commas, everyone's rules for, you know, it raises questions of spamming. It raises questions of, you got anything valuable to say every day?
Will it convert? All of those things. So my first question for you is, how long are you doing that now? Daily emails.
Katie Skelton (01:57.207)
So, seven days a week, I shifted to doing that in...
I think it was about five months ago, something like that, but before that I was doing five days a week for about a year and a half, and then before that I had three years of weekly emails.
Finola Howard (02:20.951)
And why did you shift? So we're kind of talking about a year and a half, really. I know you've seven now, but at five days a week, you're kind of in the space of nearly every day. Why did you make that decision?
Katie Skelton (02:34.412)
A variety of reasons. The first one was a realization... Well, one, I shifted from being a copywriter to teaching people how to write emails that actually work, and I thought, what better way to experiment with what works than just doing more of it? And then I give myself more space to experiment. So, my...
my emails are almost like a laboratory or a testing ground that I then work out exactly what works and then I can learn from that and pass it on to my clients. So it's almost like the, you know, people talk about the feedback loop. It's almost like the kind of the testing loop of what works. It just means I get to try more stuff. So it was partly that, was partly like a really intensive way of learning.
how things work and what approaches work and building out a load of frameworks and stuff that work for me that I can then help my clients to kind of implement in their own way. And the other one was just a realization that if I was only, and I use the word only advisedly because even an email once a week feels a lot for someone who's not doing any, but if I'm only sending one email a week and it's my main sales channel, I have only got one opportunity a week to make sales.
And so why would I not give myself five opportunities a week?
Finola Howard (04:07.917)
That's loaded now, 10 questions in my head. And they'll all flee. anyway, you in one of, so I've done one of your challenges, right? And on one of the challenges, forgive me now, I'm going to share something. Do you mind if I share something out of your challenge? Okay. Day five, you say.
Katie Skelton (04:10.514)
Good.
Katie Skelton (04:26.997)
No, no, no, share whatever you like. It's fine. No, it's good.
Finola Howard (04:33.375)
Email to my list every day with a sales offer in at least six out of seven emails. So that is going to scare the bejesus out of everyone. Now in your, in that day five, you talk about your brother suggested to push. We've got to put our businesses first, treat our business as our number one client and back to your, your comment about, why am I only giving myself one opportunity week to sell? But actually I would say to you,
people are sending weak emails and possibly not even selling in those emails. Can we talk about that? This, because there's this fear and I've talked about this in several episodes, but I really want to talk about this in relation to email. Like position this selling idea into email because you have this beautiful thing of content via email. It came from a copywriting background. Content and
Sometimes I think business owners think the content is enough, it's just a step. But you're framing it as the content has to have purpose, it must generate a sale in six out of seven emails. Can you talk around that? Like, I know there's a lot of questions in there, but talk to me about the thinking behind it and let's poke at it.
Katie Skelton (05:49.676)
Yeah, sure. They're only two seconds because I've got the sun in my eyes, so I just need to move. So just on the subject of six out of seven emails must make a sale. I'd say that slightly differently in that every email I send does not necessarily lead to an immediate sale. There are some emails I send. Everyone has an offer in it, but not like I sent one today and
nobody's bought anything, which is fine because the offer was there for anybody who was ready. It's actually a very early office for something that's starting in January. So every email I send doesn't necessarily make me money off the back of that individual email. It's more, I talk about the compounding effect of this stuff. It builds up the things that people need to hear in order to make the purchase.
are different and it's different for every person, like the combination of words that those people need to hear in order to lead them to a point where they buy something is different for every person. So that's just on the kind of offer versus sales thing. On the subject of selling every day, so making an offer every day, you'll be unsurprised to hear because you've been reading my emails for a while now that I have an analogy for this or a little illustration. So
Imagine your favorite clothes shop. Imagine you sign up to receive emails from them. Maybe you sign up because they've promised you'll get 10 % off your first order, but then you start getting marketing emails. And an email you receive says, here, I don't know why I use this as this specific thing as an example, but it's summer. Here are seven ways to style your linen trousers this summer. Here is how our
sandals are manufactured in Italy. Here is a colour that will suit your skin tone. If that business didn't then put a link for you to buy the things they're talking about, you'd think it was weird. So why do we think it's weird to give all this value to our audience and not go, and by the way, if you're actually interested in the thing I'm talking about, here's how you can buy it.
Katie Skelton (08:10.795)
And I think if we reframe our thinking around we're businesses just like those retail businesses are, why shouldn't we say to people, I've got a thing for sale after we've given them all of this kind of value? And I've got thoughts on the word value. But yeah, that is my thinking on it.
Finola Howard (08:28.812)
But also I think it's also about connecting the offer to whatever the value is that you have in it. It's not just out of left field. And just to reiterate this thing that also when you're communicating, there's so many things in my head. There's this old story, right? There's an old marketing story where it says you need seven points of contact or seven kind of touch points in order to close a sale, which is why you have in
supermarkets, you might have a like a little magazine that's available that people look at because it comes in their doorway. They might have what they call shelf talkers in the aisle. They might have an ad on the radio. They might have a because the world is noisy. And in order to stand out above the noise, you've got to build these building blocks in order to stand out above the noise so that they can go, look at you. And not only that, we've got to get
You've got to get the right hook to the right person. So you need to position it in different ways of telling that story, because that offer that you have may have multiple impacts on that customer, that potential customer. So you need to throw it at them. not throw it at them. Offer it to them in different ways that they can actually hear, yeah, that will actually address my pain point, this pain point over here. Would you? What's your thoughts on that?
Katie Skelton (09:54.934)
Yes, I agree. And... And, or, but... But that also... I would say that... Let's say you went into the supermarket, or say you are the supermarket. There will be a proportion of people... Let's say that you've got your shelf topper and your little magazine and your online marketing and a poster in the window and all of that.
there will be someone, let's say all those posters have bananas on them, all those touch points have bananas on them, they're selling bananas, there will be somebody who has full intention to make banana bread that day and they are coming to the supermarket to buy bananas and they don't need any of those things, those touch points, they are there with the intention of buying bananas and so all they need to know is where the bananas are. So, oh, this is a really good analogy. It's just come out of my brain. It's the yellow top.
Finola Howard (10:52.512)
Next week you'll see an email from Katie all about bananas.
Katie Skelton (10:52.589)
You will, you 100 % will see a banana. It won't even be next week, it'll be like now. I'm gonna hang up now and write it. Yeah, so yes, the average number of touch points is seven, but I feel like if you're offering something,
which arguably is all business owners we should be, that will help someone solve a specific problem, then we're almost doing them a disservice and doing ourselves a disservice by not telling people about it as much as possible. Because if you really believe in what you're offering, why would you not? If you've got really good bananas, wave them around.
Finola Howard (11:31.566)
What if, what if you don't have really good bananas? And I'll just make, be very clear about this. Very, very often the offer isn't good enough. And so you don't believe in the offer. Would you say that's fair to say? because we talk, I think there is, I think there needs to be a shift away from my product or my service to this is my offer.
Katie Skelton (11:45.601)
Yep. Absolutely.
Katie Skelton (11:55.726)
Yeah. I firmly believe, and this is a conversation that I've had just this morning on a group call with another group of people, where 90 % of problems that business owners encounter in terms of getting leads, making sales, writing content, delivering on your offer.
is rooted in what the offer actually is rather than any of the other stuff. It's not your messaging, it's not your positioning, it is, but it's all rooted in what the offer is. And if you don't believe in that, if you're not excited about it, and if it's not solving a problem that people actually need solving, then you're not gonna get anywhere regardless of how many times you wave your bananas around. Sometimes someone wants to make a chocolate cake and you're waving bananas in their face and they're like, no.
I will stop with the banana analogy now.
Finola Howard (12:50.498)
What do you, I know but I like the bananas.
Like I really kind of want to hammer this home, this difference between what's the difference between product and service, right? Of the saying that I have, sell this, I sell this banana and an offer in your view.
Katie Skelton (13:09.421)
Ooh, good question.
Katie Skelton (13:18.037)
I think an offer is an outcome. A product or service is the thing that helps you lead to that outcome, but you might find that your offer or your kind of the journey that you're taking people through, the middle part of it, so the product, the service, the deliverables might vary slightly, but the overarching offer, so I help people make money by...
getting more comfortable with writing and selling.
particularly in email, but that's my offer. I have lots of different products and services and things. I mean, that's partly a problem with my need to create all the time. So I wouldn't recommend creating quite as many products as I do. I think that's my answer, but I've never been asked that question before. And so it just came out.
Finola Howard (14:17.422)
So you take the view that the offer is everything that you do. It's that it's the overarching positioning then.
Katie Skelton (14:26.645)
I think so. Yeah, think offer and positioning go hand in hand. And then the like component parts of that are beneath it. And some people might have just one product sat underneath their offer umbrella, or some people might have lots of different things. I mean, I would always recommend starting with one and then diversifying because you have I feel like you need to do something really, really well and to know what your process is.
and then you can think about deviating from it. But that's a different point. I think that's my opinion on it. I may, I reserve the right to.
Finola Howard (15:03.918)
Can I suggest another way of looking at it? And it's, when we create products and services, often when someone starts a business, they don't start with a customer, they start with, I've got this thing I want to make, and I've got this thing, or I've got this expertise that I want to sell, right? So it's professional services or it's, I'm really good at massaging bananas, right? So whatever, we just had to get it in there.
Katie Skelton (15:08.939)
Yeah, of course.
Finola Howard (15:33.447)
I would say an offer is the intersection between your product and service and the pain or pleasure point of your customer. Which means you're bringing your expertise or your thing, your widget that you make. And you're kind of doing this gap analysis of seeing, but this is the person I want to help most. And how does my widget or service address their pain point? And how can I make it?
so amazing that it just transforms their lives. So it means that, that's my perspective, it means that we are really closing that intersect between what we want and what they want.
Katie Skelton (16:16.581)
Mm. I like that. So it's like a Venn diagram of person and problem and prom- the promise or the outcome that they're going to get from. Yeah.
Finola Howard (16:25.122)
And us and where our expertise and passion lies, because this is where we can create something that's amazing for them. But having that, which means that every product or service or everything that has an offer, not positioning is overarching. And then these offers are different ways of solving that thing that you're positioned to do. Because you have many ways of
Katie Skelton (16:30.391)
Yeah.
Katie Skelton (16:33.783)
Mm.
Finola Howard (16:55.662)
offering something to solve the pain that you want to solve in the world.
Katie Skelton (17:02.615)
Hmm.
Yeah, think I prefer your analysis of it. also the fact that both of us have different views on it and we know this stuff just shows how somebody who is not this experienced can get so hung up on it. Like what is an offer versus a product versus a service? Does it matter? What's positioning versus messaging? Like all of these things that get thrown at you in marketing land.
Finola Howard (17:05.228)
And it loves, yeah.
Finola Howard (17:18.018)
Yeah.
Finola Howard (17:24.398)
Mmm.
Katie Skelton (17:34.444)
It's really hard, actually all you need to think about, all you need to think about, makes it sound really simple, doesn't it? But what you need to think about is what you're really good at, what brings you energy. I think this, I talk about this all the time. It's so important to think about the stuff that you actually really love delivering. You've heard of buyer's remorse. I've talked about seller's remorse a lot where you sell something and then you're like,
no, I've now got to deliver this thing because actually, yes, it solves a problem for your client and it gets them excited, but it fills you with absolute dread. And that's how I ended up feeling about copywriting, like done for you copywriting. I could sell it and do it until the cows came home, but I hated it because it took all the love out of my own writing for my own business. And I had to find a way to be able to fall in love with my own marketing again and deliver something that was useful to other people as well.
Finola Howard (18:11.662)
Mmm.
Katie Skelton (18:27.757)
So don't... Yeah, it's good, isn't it? I would encourage everybody to do some really deep thinking about what they really, really... Like, what could you spend all day long doing if you had to? Because suddenly you find yourself spending all day long doing it and you're thinking, no, what have I done?
Finola Howard (18:28.064)
I like this phrase, Satter's remorse. Very good.
Finola Howard (18:51.458)
Yeah, I'm in complete agreement. Like this is why I talk about joy as your compass. Like if you're not filled with joy, if it doesn't light you up, you'll never become an expert at it because you hate it. And when you are the expert at it, you can become like transformational for someone. Like it's really powerful. Yeah.
Katie Skelton (18:56.631)
Mmm.
Katie Skelton (19:03.554)
Yeah.
Katie Skelton (19:10.039)
Yeah, and also it helps you keep going back to the talking about making your business your number one priority or like highest paying client, your non-negotiable. It makes those non-negotiables easier to do because you like doing them. You like talking about the stuff that you're going to deliver. Whereas if you hate it, it shows. Lack of energy and enthusiasm for stuff shows, even if you're trying desperately to hide it.
Finola Howard (19:21.816)
Hmm.
Finola Howard (19:33.482)
It does show.
Katie Skelton (19:40.045)
it comes through like the energy that you love what you do comes across and people sense it.
Finola Howard (19:47.407)
Do you think that, because I love that you do day emails, but also I love reading them because they're enjoyable to read, you know, and they're useful to read. yeah, let's talk about value. You said, I want to come back and talk about value.
Katie Skelton (20:02.539)
Yes, so I have conversations with clients and other people all the time about the meaning of the word value. And I think that again, it's something people get hung up on. I spoke to a client last week who's just started. He's literally this morning sent his first email in a very long time. And they WhatsApp me every time he gets a reply, which is really nice. But
he was really hung up on the fact that he thought previously, and one of the reasons why he stopped emailing was because he felt like he had to create something that people could almost do for themselves, action for themselves, a freebie, a resource, something tangible that he could give them for free. And that constituted value. And the minute we reframed value, as you might have seen this in a recent email of mine, there's
There's loads of different types of value. There's entertainment value. There's comedy value. There's just like connection and conversation. Yes, there's free advice and tools and all of that stuff, but there's so many different definitions of the word value. And sometimes it might just be telling a really poignant story about something that's happened to you that makes someone else go, I now feel closer to you because I know this thing about you. And that is value in itself.
Finola Howard (21:21.102)
But that's possibly critical value because that trust piece means it's not just another email.
Katie Skelton (21:23.895)
Mmm.
Katie Skelton (21:28.779)
Yeah, it's human value, isn't it? It's human. I have another story for this, which is a few weeks ago, I posted a story on LinkedIn about how my husband and I had an argument about a sausage at dinner time. It was a really stupid argument. We're actually considering starting a podcast about the stupid arguments we've had, because I think it would be quite amusing. We had a comment, we had an argument about sausage. And I just
told the story, asked the question, what stupid arguments have you had recently? That's not the main point of this. The main point is three hours after I posted that post, somebody dropped into my DMs on LinkedIn and said, I've been following you for a while, but the sausage tipped me over the edge. And he's now a client because I told a stupid story that made him go, yeah, I do that with my wife. And now we're working together.
Finola Howard (22:13.132)
No!
Katie Skelton (22:23.947)
So sometimes it's not, I didn't make an offer in that post. It was purely a just a, it came to me one afternoon and I just went, I'm gonna post about the sausage because it's funny. But you just never know when a little snippet or insight into your life or your thoughts or your like weird brain is gonna make someone go, you're my kind of person. I need to work with you.
Finola Howard (22:24.366)
Okay, I like that.
Finola Howard (22:49.262)
and it's not contrived. There was no way in hell you thought that was gonna sell. I like that.
Katie Skelton (22:51.947)
No, no and that's like that's
No, no, absolutely not. It's not a content strategy. It's just a random brain dump into LinkedIn on a Tuesday afternoon.
Finola Howard (23:08.814)
I like that. Yes, I like that. Because it's, but do you think that can be, do you think that can be strategized for?
Katie Skelton (23:19.627)
I think you can plan to put that kind of stuff into your marketing strategically. Yes, I wouldn't make it your entire content strategy because people obviously need to see evidence that you have got results for other people. They need to see that you know what you're talking about. And so if I just posted about sausages or arguments every day, then I probably get a lot of people laughing at my silly stories, but I wouldn't get any clients off the back of it because I'm not talking about what it is.
I'm doing to solve problems, unless unless I'm helping people to not have silly marital arguments anymore, in which case all of that stuff is relevant content. But yeah, there definitely needs to be a balance of stuff that kind of gets attention like that stuff that will build trust, and stuff that's actually going to lead to people going, Yeah, do know what, I do want to work with you. And you never know which one of those things is going to make someone tip over the edge.
But there needs to be a balance.
Finola Howard (24:20.942)
Do you see, I would like to know your thoughts on, I see a lot of posting that is.
around this area of wanting to be more authentic, vulnerable, sharing the journey stuff. Do you think that there is a bias towards that that does not help the business?
Katie Skelton (24:56.471)
I'm not sure I understand the question, sorry.
Finola Howard (24:59.414)
Okay, I have to ask a better question.
We live in a world where in the last few years, the word authenticity has been bandied around quite a lot. Also the word vulnerability, thank you, Brene Brown, has been bandied around quite a lot. Yes, these are important things, but sometimes I wonder and I ask the question, is there an excessive amount of that shared with the view of getting traction in terms of followers, likes, engagement?
that is a misplaced strategy. Clearly, I have a view on it, which you now know what my view is. But I'm wondering about your thoughts, because we came from a world where there was the I've got everything doing everything right because I, know, that whole corporate kind of space into a more human space, more authentic space. And partly, I wonder if if we've lost the strategy behind
Katie Skelton (25:41.206)
you
Finola Howard (26:05.228)
why we're the things we're sharing in the name of building trust and our human side. Just wondered what your thoughts were.
Katie Skelton (26:16.821)
Yeah, I'm... I have thoughts on this as well, and there's probably kind of different... Different paths I could go along. One, on the vulnerability side, I do think that there are posts that you see where it feels very contrived and almost like it's inauthentic authenticity, if that makes sense, like it's only being done.
because it's part of a content strategy. And sometimes, and it's really difficult to know as the person creating the content, how that is gonna land with people, how that's gonna come across, whether, so as an example, I, so my mum died earlier this year and I immediately wrote to my email list about it because that was, that's like my expression of.
just who I am, I just share my thoughts on a daily basis. It felt like the right place to go, I'm struggling with this, you might be too. It didn't feel like a marketing move for me, it felt like a, almost like a therapy move for me, which that might sound strange, but that felt, that felt safe in the moment. I then grappled with talking about it on LinkedIn for about three months.
Finola Howard (27:29.922)
You know, I get that.
Yeah.
Katie Skelton (27:40.492)
and then finally decided to do it, but with the acknowledgement that I really don't want to use my mum as marketing. Like I wanted to talk about her because I wanted to talk about her for me. And I think that when you're posting that personal content, almost going, do I want to do this for me or am I doing it for marketing?
Finola Howard (27:50.328)
Yeah, yeah.
Finola Howard (27:56.194)
Yeah.
Katie Skelton (28:07.625)
is an important question to ask yourself because I was really concerned that people were going to go, God, she's using her mum's death as a way to get attention and get traction on social media. Luckily, it was received in the way I wanted it to be received. And it got to the point where I didn't feel right not talking about it because I was just kind of operating as normal.
Finola Howard (28:16.162)
Mmm.
Finola Howard (28:30.2)
Yeah.
Katie Skelton (28:33.549)
many people who I interact with on a daily basis didn't know this big thing about my life. So there's that. And there's also like just knowing what your own boundary limit is with posting that kind of stuff. Like I never post photos of my children's faces, for example. Some people do, some people don't. Won't go into opinions on that. But you have to, I think you have to know what feels right for you.
Finola Howard (28:55.042)
Mm.
Katie Skelton (29:03.533)
for your situation, for your family, for your life, and really go with your gut on it, rather than people going, vulnerability sells, so think of the most vulnerable thing you can post and post that, because then that's when I think that's when it comes across as a bit contrived and done as a strategy, rather than being done from a place of just being human and wanting to share something.
Finola Howard (29:09.294)
Mm.
Finola Howard (29:28.972)
Yeah, my dad passed in 2018 and I had that same feeling that you had, is I couldn't pretend. It was like glossing over this thing that had happened, was doing my dad a disservice. That's actually how I felt. I felt that. And at the time it was I was blogging and I basically blogged the eulogy that I wrote and
Katie Skelton (29:45.473)
Mmm.
Finola Howard (29:58.243)
because I wanted to celebrate him and move on. I wanted to move on too. I wanted to not have it nagging at the back of my head, but to help my own grief process, to help my own getting back in the saddle again kind of thing, you know? So yeah, I get that. And I'm really, really glad I did because I think the people who read it knew how wonderful my dad was and I was really happy then, you know?
Katie Skelton (30:04.065)
Mm.
Katie Skelton (30:26.347)
Yeah, yeah. And also it helps people who have been in that situation to just feel less alone, I think. And I've read a couple of posts about people losing parents since I posted my post. And I got the same feeling that I hope people got from me posting about my mum, just feeling, that's horrible, but you're not alone because I've been going through a similar thing. So...
Finola Howard (30:28.129)
It hit.
Finola Howard (30:35.426)
Mm.
Finola Howard (30:41.122)
Hmm.
Katie Skelton (30:56.021)
Yeah, I mean, that's a very specific example, but I think it's useful just in terms of how you feel about it yourself, how it kind of suits your own boundaries and how you communicate stuff anyway, and how it might be perceived.
Finola Howard (30:56.216)
So I suppose that...
Finola Howard (31:00.376)
Yeah.
Katie Skelton (31:14.495)
It's an interesting and important thought process to go through, I think.
Finola Howard (31:20.152)
Yeah, I think I would take from that that vulnerability is appropriate when it's real.
Katie Skelton (31:27.499)
Mmm. Yeah.
Finola Howard (31:28.942)
And also, yeah, when it's real and when you're ready, when it's ready, not when it's an maybe not when it's an open wound, but when it's got a nice little scab on top for lack of a better way. Another thing I wanted to ask you about is in the kind of because you run courses and stuff, OK? And when you've opted to not do
Katie Skelton (31:40.715)
and then you can pick it.
Finola Howard (31:57.643)
like where you're on screen and in courses you do everything from something like Slack or Notion and you're not on screen and also you're the same with your website. So you're a right little rule breaker really aren't you? But it is quite interesting. Are you happy to share how you deliver and why you made those choices?
Katie Skelton (32:13.634)
I am the vet.
Finola Howard (32:24.204)
because not everyone wants to be on camera to deliver a course if they're doing an online offering.
Katie Skelton (32:24.279)
Yeah, so it's been.
Katie Skelton (32:29.141)
No, and this has been a really long, again, experimentation process for me. So, it was March 2023 that I first launched a group program where I took people through the stuff that I take them through now in different formats. And I came away from every call doubting myself, doubting the content that I had...
delivered to people. This was all from me. This was not, this was not feedback. The feedback I got was good from people. And feeling like there was just something not right, or not me about the way I was delivering this. And I realized that A, I was trying to give the same content to everybody without the kind of
thinking about nuances of their approach, their businesses, their brain, their energy, all the stuff that I now talk about quite a lot. And I thought that's because I'm not doing this for myself. So I asked myself, what is my absolute ideal delivery style? And I landed on, in fact, this has only happened really recently. Group stuff is entirely asynchronous. So there are no Zoom calls.
There's no, have to show up and listen to me lecturing you every week. The work that people do, they do at their own pace in their own time with my support. They can ask me for help and I will give support, but it's not, you have to show up and be in the zone at a specific time because that's A, not how I work from an energy perspective and B, not how a lot of people work. And also I found it was affecting sales because I was saying the group calls are at Tuesday, on Tuesday at 10 o'clock and
Loads of people can't make that. Time constraints are real for people. so I was doing myself out of sales and doing other people out of being helped because I was saying, you have to be on these, or you watch a replay, but that's never as good as being live. So I was like, okay, so how can I make these group things more inclusive and also more in tune?
Katie Skelton (34:50.239)
with my energy and the fact I've got two children who are always, again, I said this morning, they're either always on school holidays, or we're coming out of school holidays and recalibrating, or we're gearing up for the next school holiday. And there's like one week every half term, where I feel like I'm actually kind of okay. And things are, in fact, it might be this week. So yeah, that's, that was the kind of the thinking around how I deliver.
those things without Zoom, I also realized that when I am speaking to people on Zoom, I only really want to do it one to one. Because then I get that really deep connection with an individual and I know their business inside out, I know their personality inside out. So that was another kind of acknowledgement on my part. Okay, so the group stuff needs to be completely not hands off, but Zoom off.
screams off, if you like. The one-to-one stuff is the really in-depth stuff. And then the other thing that was like almost like the missing piece was in-person work. And I realized that once in a while, I need to be in a room with actual humans whose legs I can see and whose energy I can feel. And so that's how I've landed on this structure. But it's all to do with what brings me energy and brings me joy in combination, it's going back to what you were saying, in combination with what gets people
Finola Howard (36:04.334)
Mmm.
Katie Skelton (36:18.763)
results and my area of expertise.
Finola Howard (36:22.712)
But you, like, it's quite interesting to hear you say that because it is, it's, but you trust that insight. You're trusting your own way of being and, and you're following your joy. You like, you're following your optimum way of delivering and listening to that and not saying the market dictates that I must be on Zoom. You're not, you're saying that because what's interesting is, because you deliver on, in your group courses, right?
in Notion and in Slack, right? And if if I'm because I was looking at the Notion stuff because I signed up for some of your stuff and I was looking at that and I was kind of looking at it and I was also looking at your website because it's also not a traditional website. And I was like, you know what? They all look like emails.
So it's actually on brand. It's kind of.
Katie Skelton (37:14.987)
Yeah, and a lot of my group stuff is delivered by email as well. So I'm running a longer group program at the moment, where people get the prompts in their inbox every Monday morning. Because it's my yeah, it's my thing. Email is my thing. So why would you not receive an email from me if being on video was my thing, I probably feel slightly less inclined to deliver everything by text.
Finola Howard (37:27.365)
But it makes sense.
Katie Skelton (37:41.39)
But it's my preferred method of communication and I have to lean into that. But one thing I will say, it has taken a lot of experimentation and a lot of mistakes to get to this point. And I really do think that there's not really a shortcut to that stuff. I think that people have to try stuff, really pay attention to the stuff that makes them feel good. And oh, I really liked it when I had...
Finola Howard (37:41.684)
Mmm. Yeah.
Katie Skelton (38:08.043)
two weeks between client calls and we were just communicating via WhatsApp or whatever. And pay attention to those little touch points that work for you and for them and work out how you can then build more of that into future stuff. So everything is like a, not a complete burn down and start again, but a little reiteration of something that's gone before. And it takes time. And I think people want to go.
Right, I need the blueprint, I need the shortcut, I need the kind of, the five step process to get to here, but it's so dependent on who you are and what you do that you almost have to accept that you just need to do a bit of mistake making for a while and be prepared to then go reflect and go again, but better every time. Better for you, better for them.
Finola Howard (39:00.308)
I would completely agree. And that's my also my experience of anything that I mean, there's so much it's loaded what you've been talking about, but you trusted yourself. That's the big thing. You trusted and you're and you're also moving with your energy. Yes, with moving what works of leaning into what works instead of going outside of yourself or an external formula that you're having to
kind of push into your business. Yes, we need to look at external formulas that other people, you know, and I give them as well, it's, does this resonate with me? How do I make this my own? How does this make sense with the whole like interconnected aspects of my business? Because a business and marketing a business is not one thing and producing for a business is not one thing. It's all of these things, subtle little changes that if you are
Katie Skelton (39:37.303)
Mm.
Finola Howard (39:59.417)
consciously making those tweaks one piece at a time as you go, you will never pivot because you're always evolving. It's the pivot versus the evolution. And I'm finding myself being kind of really drawn towards, you know, we've had ages of hearing the marketplace of, I've had to pivot. You need to pivot. I think if you stay true to yourself, you're never pivoting, but you're always moving.
Katie Skelton (40:07.649)
Mm.
Katie Skelton (40:24.875)
Yeah. Yeah. And then the change is just subtle and it's not, it's never a big song and dance. It's just, I've just changed something quietly in the background and then I'm going to proceed as I was with everything. I use the example of, I'm not sure if this is a relevant example, but I'm going to say it anyway. You know, when you're trying to work out what you're allergic to and you eliminate certain foods from your diet, you do it one by one. You don't eliminate everything. You try one thing.
And if that's not made any difference, maybe you put it back in and then take something else out. And then you're like, that's the thing. So it's almost like the kind of elimination diet of sales and marketing where you just have to try stuff.
Finola Howard (41:07.63)
And I think that the more that you do it, I think the more that you do it and the more that you do this iteration piece of elimination or whatever, the more you become you. And the louder you become in the marketplace because you're more you, you are the only one who is you. So therefore you stand out.
Katie Skelton (41:18.647)
Mmm.
Katie Skelton (41:25.729)
Yep. Yep. Yep. I call it the USP, but why are you SP? Nobody can touch that. No, nobody can have the experiences or the like, nobody is the human that you are. And so the more you can lean into that from every aspect of your business, especially if you're a solo business owner, that you're going to be untouchable.
Finola Howard (41:32.453)
Yeah.
Finola Howard (41:48.067)
Another question for you around your website, right? So in conventional wisdom, especially copywriting, we have sales pages, landing pages, all of that. And your sales page is, yes, it has freebies on it. Gifts is what you call it on it. But there's very little on that website. Tell us about that decision.
Katie Skelton (41:57.538)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Skelton (42:10.785)
So my approach is very specific to the fact I send daily emails. I get people in my LinkedIn inbox, sometimes people who are very irritated saying, I can't find your offers on your website. Where can I find out what you're offering? And the answer is always in my emails because what I'm offering changes depending on seasonality, depending on energy, depending on time, whatever.
So that is the only place to access my live offers because they change. So my approach, because I have that seven days a week touch point with people, all roads lead to the email list. If you're not there, you're never gonna buy from me. And I'm fine with that because I've built a structure that works for me. That's where I do my selling. I've basically put all my eggs in that basket.
because it's my basket, it's my area of specialism, so why wouldn't I? I wouldn't necessarily recommend that everybody takes that approach because if you're sending weekly or fortnightly emails, then you've probably not got enough email touch points to make all roads lead to email, but that's my entire strategy. Everything on LinkedIn, pretty much every post will say, join my email list. My website, all I want is for people to join the email list or to download something that will then filter them into the email list.
So it's a very intentional thing. Also, it's quite a lazy thing because I don't want to have a load of like all singing or dancing sales pages on my website that take loads of time to write and maintain. And for a couple of years, I didn't need my website at all. So it's just kind of sitting there now. So I wouldn't necessarily copy my strategy.
Finola Howard (43:58.328)
So if.
But here's a question for you. Has this strategy worked? So this a year and a half ago, you went to five emails a week, then to seven emails a week. In the main, you have smaller offers, but many more of them. Is that correct?
Katie Skelton (44:20.621)
Um, it's a combination. I have, I have many more small offers than I do big offers. have kind of a handful to two handfuls of lower ticket stuff going on at any given time or kind of in cycles. And then I have some mid tier stuff kind of between 500 pounds and two and a half thousand ish and then some super high ticket stuff and then some like team stuff that that all that stuff doesn't even get sold on the
email list, that's more I connect with someone, I have a conversation with them, I identify that they have a need to train their sales and marketing team, and we have a conversation about it. So there's a lot there's a lot of conversation going on behind the scenes as well. And I want to talk about conversation too. I've forgotten what the question was, because I deviated from my own point. Oh, yes, yes, 100%. So
Finola Howard (45:11.02)
Are you making more money since you did this?
Katie Skelton (45:16.077)
In the last, I won't share specific numbers. Well, I'm happy to, I'm happy to if you want me to. But in the last six months of 2022, I made zero pounds, no money whatsoever. I had no clients because I had no offer and I had no specialism. The second I specialized in email, that was my thing. That's when the sales started coming in more. then, the last three years I've had...
Finola Howard (45:19.256)
Yeah, no.
Katie Skelton (45:45.869)
back-to-back record years. So 23, 24, and soon to be 25 have been growing year on year.
Finola Howard (45:52.44)
What would you say the percentage increase, if you don't mind me asking that? So from 22, 23, 24.
Katie Skelton (45:56.112)
So this is the interesting bit. the, did I start sending daily emails? May, 2024. So in, in 2023, I'm just going to tell you the numbers because it's easier. In 2023, I made 70,000 pounds. So that was my kind of, oh, thank goodness I can actually do this year. 2024, and this is all revenue rather than profit, but my profit margins are really high because my business is so simple.
In 2024, I made about 155,000. So, and that was the year I switched from weekly to five days a week. And then this year I'm on track to, I'm already at 2024's figure now, with a month and a half to go.
Finola Howard (46:48.334)
Fantastic. What would you like?
Katie Skelton (46:50.455)
So the number of emails I send is directly proportional to how much money I make.
Finola Howard (46:57.422)
Bravo. And you took a risk.
Katie Skelton (46:59.245)
Thank you. Yeah, it was a massive risk and loads of people said to me, don't do it. I've got a very good friend, this blimmin' son. I've got a very good friend who said to me, I will not read a daily email. And he's read every single one since April, 2024. He's still on the list. He was like, no, don't do it. It's an awful idea. Nobody wants to hear from you every day, except all the people who do.
Finola Howard (47:16.578)
love that.
Finola Howard (47:26.254)
but it comes from how you write your emails. Like they're really, they're a joy to read. They're easy to read, a joy to read. Yeah. What would you like people to walk away with? Because I could ask you loads more questions about this, but you know, I have a limit. As in, as in the podcast has a limit. I don't have a limit. What would you like people to walk away with?
Katie Skelton (47:33.431)
Thank you.
Katie Skelton (47:44.589)
I could be here all day.
Katie Skelton (47:53.518)
So number one, not even trust your gut, but trust your energy, trust your decisions. One thing that I'm so grateful to my parents for is trusting me from a very, very young age to make unconventional decisions. So when I went to them aged 17, I was 16 still at the time, and said, I want to quit school.
and go and work full time in a record shop where I was working part time already, they were like, okay, if that's the thing you want to do, I trust you to make the right decision for you. And if it's not the right decision, everything will be okay. And that's like those two things have stuck with me for so long that I can make a decision that feels scary. And even if it's the wrong decision, it's not the end of the world. There is always another route you can take. And so that's made it easier for me to make.
what other people might see as difficult decisions. So yeah, trust your energy, trust your own ability to make decisions that are right for you. Even if you don't send a daily email, I really recommend writing every day if you can, because I have found that just the act of writing every day has helped me be more confident in what I believe, who I am, my voice, my personality, my everything. It's just...
Like I've got such a stronger sense of self just from writing that email every day. So even if you just write something little, it's it is like properly life changing. And that sounds really silly, I think. But it's a lots of people say read more than you write, like consume more than you create that kind of thing to be a really good writer. I think that's rubbish.
Finola Howard (49:32.172)
No, I'd agree with you. No, I completely agree with you.
Katie Skelton (49:45.181)
I actually block out most of the noise, I pay no attention to what other people are doing, because I don't want to get distracted, apart from people I intentionally want to learn from, in which case I will pay them money and I will learn from them. But I don't, I don't scroll through all of the things that I should be doing. And that's another contributing factor to me feeling so confident in my own decisions, because they're not clouded by other people's views of what I should be doing. So yeah.
Finola Howard (50:13.198)
They're actually informed by how your customer behaves. It's kind of interesting.
Katie Skelton (50:17.621)
Yeah, and how I feel as well. I was going to say a third one and I've forgotten what it is. So number three is if you've got three points to make, make sure you write down the third one because you'll probably forget it by the time you get there.
Finola Howard (50:20.686)
how you feel.
Finola Howard (50:34.251)
bananas.
Katie Skelton (50:35.243)
And bananas, yeah, wave your bananas in people's faces as much as possible.
Finola Howard (50:39.278)
Thank you so much. What a joy to talk to you.
Katie Skelton (50:43.873)
Thank you, I'm so glad that we finally got here.
Finola Howard (50:47.021)
Yay!
