Per Kristiansen 0:02
We need to sometimes take the time to listen to the voice in our pulpits, not get absorbed by it, not to use the right voice. But if we can't hear ourselves, how can we expect other people to listen to us?
Finola Howard 0:19
That's Per Kristiansen, one of the two original master trainers in the Lego serious play method. Per started working with Lego, originally as part brand manager, part change agent, and then became aware of an internal initiative to harness imagination at a time when Lego was struggling with how children were changing how they played. Join me as we discover how his curiosity led him on a completely unexpected path. I'm Finola Howard, intuitive marketer, your host and founder of how great marketing works. I believe that every business has a story to tell, because that's how the market decides whether to buy or not, and your story has to resonate with who you are and with the people you want to serve. And this podcast is about helping you reach the market in a way that feels right to you. So if you're an entrepreneur with a dream you want to make real, then this is the podcast for you, because great marketing is your truth share. And today, I wanted to introduce you to this idea of that there are many ways to skin a cat. There are many ways to figure out your strategy, your thinking, how you run your business, how to think through your business, how to figure it out, because there's often, there's a block to how do I, you know, make a decision, or stuff like this. And a few years ago, actually, many years ago, I came across a wonderful, kind man called pear Chris Johnson, which I've just murdered his name, but he's a facilitator and trained are actually one of the original founders, or people who took this idea of using Lego to access the insights and wisdom that are inside of us to be able to drive a business forward. Yes, I did say Lego and welcome pear. Thank
Per Kristiansen 2:22
you, Finola, yes,
Finola Howard 2:29
you did beautifully pronounced. So I loved so I have to recap, because we, we had our conversation, and I had to come. When did I do this work? I did this course on LEGO serious play, right as opposed to frivolous play,
Unknown Speaker 2:47
2014 2014
Finola Howard 2:51
a long time ago, but it really moved me. I never forgot it. And so let's, let's first share with people, what is Lego, serious play? So
Finola Howard 3:07
it's magic, right? Yeah, no, but it is on a serious note. I mean, we tend to say that it's a facilitated thinking and communication technology or method. So really, at its core, it's about helping people to think and to communicate. Yeah, but that that that is really at its core. Now, as you said in the beginning or indicated, I guess it was initially developed, you know, for Lego, at Lego, to help a group of people think about their strategy and to communicate in those meetings about the strategy that's you but and that is evolved from
Finola Howard 4:10
there. Can I ask you, because I want to ask you, because this is really interesting to me, how it started. So Lego was, you know, successful. We all know how successful it is, but there was the advent of video and all this kind of stuff, and they wanted, they were kind of worried about, oh my God, will we remain relevant? And they brought in consultants to look at, you know, strategy and all the rest of it, but realized that they weren't tapping into something that's at the heart of that company, which was imagination. Is that fair to say?
Per Kristiansen 4:40
Yes, it's fair to say, I mean, Lego did struggle in this period. I don't think it's a secret to anyone, just to say that Lego in this is around the 2000 right, or late 90s, they were struggling, and it's a death they were. A full stop the Lego. Owner of Lego is a family owned company, and back then he was truly third generation. He was killed. He has a very strong value set. He has an extremely deep held or had, I believe he still has, but he's sort of retired and or senior retiring, but to really deeply held, be strongly held beliefs about what human humans can and want to so he he believed in this human potential, then we have an unlocked potential. He has this belief that, you know, people go to work to do well. He's not naive. He's not, he didn't say that people are always doing well. But he we wake up and we go to work and we want to do well. And there is, there is also, you know, is a good feeling from that, from working, right? So, so, so that was sort of the starting point. And then in and then he believes in his company and the values Lego stood for. And there was something about that things weren't the way they were strategizing. And you said, Imagination is super, super important the way they were unlocking or utilizing this. Imagination wasn't there, and he had or in he had conversations with these two professors who, at that time, were at IMD. They worked for him, not as part of their IMD work, but they were at IMD with both visiting professors, I believe, at the time, and together was killed, and they did some iterations. And you know, idea came out to use the Lego bricks in this work. And this worked with that. And there was something there, but it didn't quite work. And then Robert Rasmussen, who I've worked with now for, I guess that would be plus 20 years. He was invited in to really help them. It's going to get some structure, or turn this into something that you know that actually work, because I think they kill could see the idea, but, but it was. It did. It didn't really predictably work every single time or at all. Truly,
Finola Howard 7:29
does it work every time now? Yeah, yeah. So that wasn't
Per Kristiansen 7:38
fair. It took us 20 years to figure out why it works. No, it quickly did. I mean, Robert can underestimate his I mean, his role is obvious because you just look at history, but he, I think Robert put some years back like he's got, he, he didn't know anything about strategy, and he was a people leader, but he's like, this was not his field. He was in learning, in the development, yeah. And he really brought in all this knowledge about plea, but, but also flow and how the brain basically works. And he brought that to this management process, if I may call it that right. It really helped put some some healthy layers into it. And then I was lucky enough to then join, and also, excuse me, relatively early in this, and develop and assist and participate in the development of the method, but also a lot on it, on how we can then put it into a thing that we can actually help others learn, so they can go and do it as well, right as you also develop in the facilitator. But Robert really saw, saw this thing, and somehow managed to figure out what's the nucleus here. Right now we're talking, I guess, 2000 2000 a month.
Finola Howard 9:17
Help people understand what is a Lego, serious play workshop, like, like, physically, because we haven't really told them, You are actually playing with Lego bricks. Give us an example of of an exercise that you might do. I know one of the ones that you talked about was, you know, building values or building Yeah, I'll let you give an example.
Per Kristiansen 9:41
I think before we give an example, let's just, kind of just try and describe what, actually, what would, what would an outsider see if they were looking at a series so, so, so they would see a facilitator, so take it outside of sorts, and the facilitator would ask. A question which clearly has more than one right answer, which which asks people to know something they don't know they know in a way where they build something that doesn't look like anything. There you go. It's go.
Finola Howard 10:23
That's extremely obscure.
Per Kristiansen 10:27
And that is the thing. That's why I mean, when you when you were asking this question, I was going like, Oh no, she's going to ask me to describe what it feels like to do downhill skiing, right? Or, you know how to or imagine this. Please describe to me how to ride a bicycle. How does that work? And you go like, well, handles like we you know, two wheels, keep your balance. It sounds so complicated and obscure. If you were to describe how to ride a bicycle, I don't think anyone ever would get on a bicycle, no matter how complicated it would sound. Anyway, let's try and go back to this. So, yeah, that's what they would see. That's what they will see. And what's important here is a couple of things we're we're actually asking people to build something they don't know. They know. So most of the time when we are asked that question, either is someone trying to humiliate us and prove to us that we don't know anything, or it's to test what we know. Right? That's a normal question. So we're either being put out for humiliation or to prove what we already know. But get fund was exactly that. We say that all the time, right? So he wanted people to be asked the question where they were accessing the stuff they don't know they know, and make new connections in their brains. That was the best idea. Number one, that's unleashing your imagination. You said in the beginning, right? And then more than one, and there's more than one right answer, so there's not a boss or a senior person who knows it. If you were to ask me, What's the capital of Denmark, there will be one right answer. Someone would know maybe more, but there would be a right answer right so that's, that's, that's, that's a part of it. Now then we don't build anything that looks like anything. So we're actually not building physical representation of where what we're talking about. We're building metaphors. So the own so the builder owns the meaning in the mod. And it's really in that process, it becomes really interesting, right? So if you walked in, or if you're the one observing this going on, you would never know what people are building until they'd share the story to you. But then once you heard it and you've seen it, there's a really you hear me differently. So if I was to share I'm gonna take a random LEGO model that's on my desk here, if I was to share this, and I built this, and there's a certain meaning that. And we see here two kittens looking each in their direction, and one is placed on a weird green, transparent Blake brick. If I told you what that meant that, then what these were metaphors for that in that impression for you, will help you form a stronger memory, partly because of the metaphors and partly because you're literally seeing what I'm saying. You can see these two cats are looking in different directions. That helps you form a stronger memory in your brains of what I just said. So that's sort of what, not sort of that is what's going on, yeah, at its very core, now, a workshop. So
Finola Howard 13:49
question for you, the thing that always stayed with me from LEGO serious play, was this, this history or this the science behind the connection between hands, physically hands building something, and the brain, which I'd like to talk about in a minute, but you're actually, you've just added something else to me here, which is the importance of actually seeing something. Because we talk about vision for a business so often, but it's it's only it rests in our minds. We never actually physically see it, never physically see the manifestation of it. And you've just, I've just realized that's what you do with building in metaphors. You can I want my Lego kit now, again,
Per Kristiansen 14:35
it was in your first language, right? Which I will say is English, and my first language, which is Danish, we have these phrases. I can't see what you're saying. I really don't see that angle, I don't see that perspective. I can't see that point of view. And true, we can't, but here we can.
Finola Howard 14:55
I just love that.
Per Kristiansen 14:57
Can you see what I'm saying? I just said it again, right? Yeah. We said all the time reality, that it will be so natural for our brains. He says, trying to show where his brain is. But here we actually see what people are saying. And the fun thing is, if I was sharing this man with you, right, and I didn't share, here's here's an owl, right? And I and I didn't share what that meant, you would see the owl, and then you're going, so pear, does the owl mean anything? Because you can see what I haven't said,
Finola Howard 15:28
Yeah, I'm actually sad. Wow. So when you have people coming for workshops, is it I know this. I'm asking question. I already know the answer. But anyway, is it for companies and bringing their whole team together? Is it for individuals, for their lives? Is it what? Who comes? Who uses Lego series play,
Per Kristiansen 15:55
people? Humans. So far. So far humans, right? Well, we'll see what comes out of the hearings in the US, whether there are extraterrestrials among us so far, and not and not now, let's put it this way. So let go seriously. Is we often talk it's a language. We often say it's a language, it's a method, it's a language, and it's a language that everybody can speak. Now, different facilitators bring it to different people, groups of people. I personally meet her. I work mostly with adults, and I work mostly with adults in commercial organizations. Yeah, I do a little bit in public government institutions, but I'm mostly in that field, but people use it practically all over. There is something about how a brain works that makes it more well suited. All things equal from a certain majority, because that's when our brain we need brains to really handle the metaphors. But it is used with children. It is used with children. It's used, I mean, it's used in therapy. The exam I was trying to get to was that I recently, we work a little bit with an NGO in Vietnam. They use it with traffic girls, basically to help them find themselves. It's used also the list of fortunate children in Thailand, I know of it being used, but in military camps. I know it's been used in peace negotiations. It's yeah, it's a language that helps people think and communicate in a super, non threatening and extreme safe way. I know it's been used with a one of what the correct word is listed is called the native tribes, yeah, in in the Pacific Island tribes that had never seen Lego bricks before, yeah, but the facilitator used them, used Lego storage to help them talk about how China un supported project or something. So they built with Lego bricks. They build in a way that for us is upside down. So they had this dots, the knobs down, but they never seen Lego bricks before. So who's who knows what's up and down, right? Yeah,
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Finola Howard 19:41
This is Finola and Lucy, and we can't wait to meet you there. Explain to people the idea of the hand brain connection.
Per Kristiansen 19:55
Yeah, so there are different, uh. The strains that of research that suggests that by engaging our hand or hands, we engage more of our brain. Right? This goes all the way back to the constructionism with Seymour Papert, but it also goes into some more of the recent neuroscience in this whole body cognition, the extended mind, but but it seems that directly or indirectly, our brain, our brains are closely connected with our hands. So by engaging our hands, we seem to be engaging more of our brains, more of our brain, brain, and I would like to say seeing and suggest because, I mean, I don't think the book is closed on how the brain works, but it really seems that by engaging our hands, we're engaging more of our brain, different parts of our brain. We're actually helping our brain cells, our neurons, talk together. And even as we, you and I doing this, you can see my hands are all over the place. So we are 3d beings, and it does seem to help us to do this. So by building it and and by brilliant external ourselves, and by by, by, by having all these stimuli, I'm touching my fingertips now, it seems that more parts our brains are lightening up, lighting up, and we are we are accelerating the creation of new connections between our neurons. So it seems, and our experience, and this is more anecdotal, and our experience in the workshops is, of course, that this is exactly what happens. We we ask people to build, they build, and then they share it, and then they say, Oh, I didn't know I knew that. And this is after building with Lego breaks for 12 minutes without anybody saying anyone, and without searching or asking chat. GPT, right? It literally comes from them. Talk
Finola Howard 21:55
to me about flow, and how I talk about flow a lot, but talk to me about flow in the context of Lego serious play.
Per Kristiansen 22:07
I mean, there's so many people that know so much more about flow than I do, but it does seem that you're witnessing it. Sorry, I'm witnessing it, yes, and I'm definitely witnessing it, and I'm also, I hope, harnessing it, because we there seems to be a lot of flow experiences, and there are micro flow experiences, and there are team flow experiences, long flow experiences, but it seems that our participants really have this deep flow experience, And it's also an individual level. And there are some really beautiful team flow experiences where they're building collectively, but this balance between perceived difficulty of a challenge and our perceived skills that coming together and then being stretched, and this the dissolvement of time, right? They're gone. So they're asked this question. I'm back to this question where they don't know the answer, right? So they're thrown out a little bit of flow, but not more. You know, the flow corridor, but we tend to be but we want to throw ourselves out of it in order to grow. So they're asked this question, they don't where they don't fully know the answer, but they want to know the answer. The key thing is, you ask them a question. I go, Where? Where they go like I don't know, but I wish I did right. I wish I did so they're out of flow, but the desire to grow because the facilitator has scaffolded them with emotionally attractive examples like competence and skills and values. Now they need then this thing that helps them grow faster, and that's where they start building and making sense of it. Now this, this requires silence so to so they're not disturbing themselves. They're not interrupting themselves, right? So phones are gone, the room is sufficiently quiet. There might be a little bit of background musing, just almost like holding the space for them so that they they, they go deep into this, and they build a complete track of time. And then also they look up and there's a Whoa, what did I build? And then this, sometimes they don't even think they know the story when they start talking. And then they do, of course they do. Yeah, so, so, so those are fantastic. It, yeah, it's really fun. And sometimes you go, like, so this was 1215, minutes, and they look up and they go, No, it wasn't
Finola Howard 24:40
you said something. You said something to me earlier about they about that they never thought like this before, or were heard like this before.
Per Kristiansen 24:57
Tell me more. Yeah. You. But I think, I think I might have said both, but let's the hurt. Hurt one, I think, for a lot of people, is really wow, because what happens after they were like, Oh, I didn't know I knew this and that inside, and then they realize that people are listening to them. And now I have a great believer of meanings. I think when people say we have too many meetings, I think they're saying the wrong thing. I think they have two bad meetings, because we are truly knowledge companies, then meetings must be the key production. Yeah, right, but I don't say I think most people are used to meetings where nobody is listening to them, everybody's talking, but there's no real listening. I think it was Peter Singh, one of these, or miss cohort, that once said that most people confuse dialog with Two Way monolog, and I think most meetings are two way monologs or multi way monologs. But dialogs actually requires that you listen to people. So I think many people in the first industry workshop are shocked when they realize that when they're talking, people are actually listening to and that is also a big sort of, well, I was heard and that so we, we saw About 100 100 meetings. So that means that everybody's participating all the time. Doesn't mean everybody's talking at the same time, but to truly listen to someone actually requires your participation. And one of the tricky things in Lagos church play is that once somebody has shared their story, people are allowed to ask questions, right, to the model, to the story, but they're asking them in a manner, let's call it clean, but they're asking them in a manner where there is no level of interpretation, so there's nothing about whether they agree or disagree, right? Often people say, I don't agree with you, but this is irrelevant, because in serious play, people cannot be wrong. So whether you agree or don't agree is actually, in the beginning, things change a shift later, but that's a different we'll have that in a minute different conversation. But you can't be wrong. That's mean, I agree with you, but you're not wrong. It's a really, really essential thing, right? Anyway, so that's part No, that's one thing. So then when you have a question, right? You the facilitator and the other participants can ask questions to this model, and I'm pointing to a random LEGO model, but it's not whether I agree with you. That's not a question, right? It's not even an interpretation. You could only ask questions in a clean and curious manner. So if you were to ask a question here, you might to the middle one I have front of me. You could ask Finola, does it mean anything that the mini figure is sitting down? Because now you're exploring my meaning. You're not projecting, you're not agreeing. You You have respect for what I've shared. You respect for my new knowledge, my models, my new knowledge. You help me explore my new knowledge through your question, your story, your meaning, your opinion will come later. Now I'm taking another random one when you share this, right? So you don't need to defend, protect, project your meaning. Slash knowledge onto what I've said, yours will come. Now if we are to create a shared understanding, an aligned understanding, a coordinated understanding, then later we will go through this shared model building phase, where we then will have the collective flow experience, right where we and this is really beautiful, but where they're really building together. And sometimes I record their hands, because you see their hands moving in synchrony. It is a really interesting thing to say, and that can take an hour, and they go like, what what happened? It can also take longer than an hour, and their shared meaning is being created without having a conversation about whether we agree or not. So again, we take this agree, disagree thing out of it, and we create an aligned understanding with full respect of that you are right and I am right. But how could we then make these two rights? And I know this sounds a little bit esoteric, but this is like, this is a downhill skiing metaphor again, right? You gotta, you have to try downhill skiing to know downhill skiing, but it happens, is it pain free? Absolutely? Absolutely not. Is it emotional? Absolutely Is it personal? No, because it's not about you, it's not about me, it's about the knowledge we built. So all conversations and cons in the construction of knowledge happens through the boundary object. So I'm barely looking at you at any moment. I'm looking at what we're talking about. I'm looking at our Lego markets, which shifts everything right? It's super emotional, but it's that person
Finola Howard 30:30
you mentioned. People have cried in the workshops before. Yes,
Per Kristiansen 30:36
they Yeah, and they have when they cry, it's it's more when we are working on personal matters, so not so much in the Strategy Workshop. So it's not that crime because they were humiliated. It's not crying because they were exposed. They cry because they're emotional. It typically happens when they're building the personal model. And when I say personal, well, I mean personal identity, because they have these insights. They cry for. There's there are actually two reasons, sometimes they cry or get him. I mean emotional, and because cry can sometimes sound negative, and many people associate with a with a not a good experience, but that's not how it feels. So they're emotional because insights about themselves, realizations and other reason they cry. And this is back to what you said before. I believe is heard. They they also cry because they're being hurt. And there are many teams, right? Lots of teams. Unfortunately, they might have worked together for years, but the individuals never had the undivided attention of their peers while sharing their most important story. And for most of us, our most important story is the story about us, about who we are, right? So being allowed to first find how we say you are, or just have that reflection on what you're building, and then being allowed to share that with people, and experiencing that you have their undivided attention and in an absolutely non judgmental way, you're actually being heard, not interpreted but hurt. That can also really move people. So it's not sometimes it's not even what they share. It's that they share. Let me, if I can make that distinction,
Finola Howard 32:48
it's a beautiful thing. It is. There's some other phrases that I love that you have never interrupt the builder, as you build, you're sitting with the thought was one idea, and also you can never be done building, because that would mean you knew everything. Yeah. When you build, you make new knowledge. When you build, you make new knowledge.
Per Kristiansen 33:20
Yeah. So we really believe that building, building is thinking, Yeah,
Finola Howard 33:26
but the new knowledge thing is interesting because so often we hear the idea of there's no new ideas, but this tells me that there are, yeah.
Per Kristiansen 33:38
I think, I think mostly when people say there are no new ideas is because they always feel that an idea can be broken down to two existing ideas in in, and that may be true, right? But that doesn't mean that the idea isn't a different idea in I think New ideas are, are just connections, connecting things, right? So I think lots of new ideas, we can always break everything down, but, but, but say there are no new ideas, it's like saying there are no new organism. And that will make me, and me like the amoeba that we came from millions of years ago, right? Yeah, we we evolved from. That doesn't mean there are new ideas, I think, but that becomes semantics, maybe. But in that sense, in thinking, thinking, thinking is building right? And in when we ask a question, where they don't know, where they don't know the answer, when they start building, and then they build, and then what they have built, the model is what they all know. They know. So building is thinking. Hence why we don't interrupt them, because we really can not think and talk or think and listen at the same time. Now, in our conversation here, if I started thinking. Thinking about that thing I need to do tomorrow. I have a bit of a test tomorrow. If I started thinking about that one now, I wouldn't. I wouldn't really hear what you're asking. I really would.
Finola Howard 35:10
You should say that phrase again, because that's really important. You cannot think while you're talking.
Per Kristiansen 35:19
We can't we cannot think and talk, we cannot think and listen. We just cannot right? We cannot think and talk. We cannot think and this,
Finola Howard 35:28
he also told me, I just love that. You also told me this the story of you were, oh, I can't remember exactly where you were, but you went, you were out visiting this other country, and you went to visit the castle, and you saw the soldier standing at guard. I love this story,
Per Kristiansen 35:49
right? This was Italy, and and we were driving from Milano, Milan, and we were heading to vero, and that's sort of historically, you could argue there's a bit of border, borderland here, between the different sort of whatever there were Dukes or so. We visited this little village because we had checked out a restaurant there. So we had a fantastic lunch. And before we drove on, we wanted to go for a bit of a walk, just freshen up, and we had a glass of wine. So maybe not a bad idea. As we did that, we found a dome Castle, because this little village was on one of the main sort of highways of the Middle Ages, right? So there was a castle here. And we visited. All the rooms were still there, so we visited that walked around and read about it. And this was a sort of military Castle, if I may say so, right. So they have been there to guard this road, this highway, and protected and probably asked for taxes. And as I was walking around, I thought, These soldiers, let's say that been 30 years, they must have spent a lot of time waiting, right? Waiting and waiting. People weren't showing up. Don't probably go on coming sometimes uneventful, right? Just doing that, as with my phone in my pocket properly. It dawned on me that we never wait any longer. I think in our the way we live today, we never wait. That doesn't mean we don't have waiting time, but when we have waiting time, let's say boarding a plane, waiting for the metro. Right? I say waiting for the Metropolitan, waiting time for Metro. We take out our phones, we check our emails. I mean likes. We have an Instagram or Tiktok or depending on your generation, but we never wait. We never stand still or sit still or just are still. There's no sort of being still. We don't we're waiting time, but we fill it out immediately. And that struck me, and I spoke with my Italian partner about it probably not a super healthy thing, because for the brain to have an inside and rewire, but it needs quiet time. David Rock did the Healthy Mind platter a few years ago, which had that as well, but, but it struck me that it's just this concept of waiting doesn't exist. I don't think like I have two boys, one turns 20 today, the other 117 soon. I don't think they've ever waited and don't wait. And then when I had a conversation also, and I referred, and then it disrupt Megan. And when I was reading deep work by doing Cal Newport recently, who talked about this, right, be careful, because our brains need it again, struck me. And then it struck me. You know how when I wait for an elevator, how easy it is to just get that phone out. So I'm personally practicing not to do these things, because it's good for the brain, and it probably helps the brain think differently and have insights. And if we are to have a role in a world dominated by AI, I think it's it is that role we need to be able to slow down our thinking, to see what's not otherwise being seen, because AI can always see what's being seen. And that's that's easy mode on an easy threat, what
Finola Howard 39:36
I love it you've given me, you've given me lots to think about, and I'm going to be boarding a train soon, so I'm going to do that. So what would you like to leave people with today?
Per Kristiansen 39:51
I hope they waited for that. No, but there's lots of things I would like them. I. I think I mean, Robert and I have, you know, we want to bring Lego series play right out. And what does that mean? Well, it means, for me, it means to play more. I'd like for people to play more. And Stuart Brown has done a lot of fantastic stuff on this, and I think he has the phrase of that, what he says that plays like a fertilizer for the brain, so it's madness not to use it. So I think we should play more. And that's really my frivolous and it does mean crawling around on our knees, but using Play to really allow the brain to flourish. And so I like that play part. I'm I would like people take away what I'm practicing on. I'm not saying I'm practicing it. I'm practicing being able to do this, accepting that other people can be right without agreeing with them. And it's two different things. Someone can be right without you agreeing with them, and then bring waiting back beautiful, or at least brings a lot of silence in your head. And that's as we're talking about. It actually dawned on me, because I run, I go running in the morning, and just realized that I never run with any I don't run with music. I don't run with podcasts, because I really think we sometimes need to take the time to listen to the voice in our head. I love why I'm not a big podcaster. I listen to a few well well selected I am more of a reader when it actually comes in. I know I shouldn't say that podcast, but I just did. So I listened to a few podcasts, but where I was going was also with music, and in this I think we need to sometimes take the time to listen to the voice in our own heads, not get absorbed by it, not to use the right voice. But if we can't hear ourselves, how can we expect other people to listen to us? We can't bear listening to ourselves. We can't prioritize that ourselves. Why should anyone else listen to us? I think I have a little bit about that one going as well. So that was three things. Is that too much? All
Finola Howard 42:18
wonderful. All wonderful. Thank you so much Pear.
Unknown Speaker 42:23
No My pleasure.
Finola Howard 42:28
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