Sarah Kelly 0:02
It was one of those things that I just think every female should do. It shouldn't be expensive. There shouldn't be barriers. It should be something that is almost mandatory. These are the things that women need to understand so they can just better understand their bodies and be a bit more compassionate with themselves.
Finola Howard 0:19
That's Sarah Kelly and Michelle home female scientists and co founders of supplements company, horology, the science of her. They are on a mission to revolutionise the supplement industry with high quality, evidence based supplements, specifically tailored to the needs of women. And in today's episode of your truth shared, we're speaking about the taboos around women's health, what it takes to launch a successful product, and why it always takes longer than you expect. Tune in to find out more. I'm Finola Howard, intuitive marketer, your host and founder of how great marketing works, I believe that every business has a story to tell, because that's how the market decides whether to buy or not. And your story has to resonate with who you are and with the people you want to serve. And this podcast is about helping you reach the market in a way that feels right to you. So if you're an entrepreneur with a dream you want to make real, then this is the podcast for you. Because great marketing is your truth share. We're speaking a lot about women's health these days, yes, we've seen the rise of the discussion around menopause and what that means for women. But there are more and more conversations about women's health. And this idea that these two lovely guests, planted in my head, which was this idea of women's health is that we are not we men, we are women. And therefore our physiology and our nature needs to be treated in a slightly different way and needs to be celebrated in a different way. And that I hope sets the scene for you for this conversation with the wonderful Sarah Kelly, and Michelle home. Welcome, guys.
Unknown Speaker 2:10
Thank you for Nola.
Unknown Speaker 2:11
Thanks so much for having so delighted
Finola Howard 2:14
to have you here. We're going to talk today about a few things. One of the things we're going to talk about is the journey that you've taken because you came together passionate women, passionate scientists about this area of women's health. And you decided to create this new supplement business, this new range of supplements that are designed specifically for women. And I love the fact that they're designed by women, for women really embracing this idea of our physiology, being different, you know, needs to be taken care of. And that brand is her ology, which we're going to talk about in a minute. But let's first kind of set the scene for who you are as people because you actually came together from very strong careers separately. And I'd love to explore that first if that's okay. And I kind of when you guys tell the story often think that it was you were meant to come together to do this. How did you feel when I say that to you?
Michelle Hone 3:20
I just feel like that's actually so true. There were so many moments along the way that we were like, wow, this was total serendipity. This was meant to happen. So I totally agree with you on that one. Yeah,
Finola Howard 3:29
beautiful. Okay, so let's start. Let's start. Michelle, tell us your story. Because you guys actually overlapped in in your education in life. There were so many moments where you overlapped. But perhaps you might set the scene first Michelle on your story, and then we'll go to Sarah, tell her tell us her story. Yeah, so
Michelle Hone 3:50
my journey and my career I suppose, or education started with sports science and health and DCU think it was 2009. That was my undergraduate. And then I very quickly went straight into a PhD after that. And during my PhD and probably during sports science as well, actually, Sarah, Sarah would have been a lecturer in DCU, the chair of our programme, so when I went into my PhD, I suppose just to kind of give you an overview, when you do a PhD, you become really knowledgeable and very specific to a certain topic and can get pigeonholed in that topic. And mine was to do with everyone. I actually feel like I have PTSD. I can do remember the zoo of protein and elderly populations and recovery from exercise. But as a result, you get very pigeonholed in this area. And I was mindful that when I finished my PhD, I wanted to be well versed in all topics of nutritional science. So I set up a Instagram page called the fifth time that comes it was never meant to be a business. It was only ever meant to be kind of like a push for me to educate myself and there fourth, educate other people for
Finola Howard 5:01
take a moment, take a moment because I love this story. I love that because you laugh every time you say the Fit clinic was just an Instagram account and was never meant to be a business. And it has turned into an incredibly successful business.
Michelle Hone 5:14
Yeah, so it was, it's nice because it's just totally been organic, which is lovely. But basically what happened was, I was taking these research papers, which are obviously difficult for most people to understand and to read, and making them into these like pictures into infographics that are really easy to understand. And after a couple of months, people were messaging me being like, oh, like, we write me a nutrition plan. I was like, Oh, God, and I was like, that's definitely not what this wasn't a profitable business or anything like that. Like I wouldn't normally. I did, I don't think I was never entrepreneurial, and my parents were both employed. So as a result, I've never really had that entrepreneurial streak, whereas my husband would, and he was like, just go for it. So I remember I stayed up all night, until six o'clock in the morning writing these like designing these free consultation forums, and I sent them on to my first client like mad. Wow. And then it's just literally just grew from there. Which is crazy. So
Finola Howard 6:10
and were you doing that business? Are you doing that business while you're doing your PhD while you're finishing your PhD?
Michelle Hone 6:16
What was fine probably set the satanic ope so a PhD simply for years, and started the fake clinic probably like six months into my first year PhD. So it was a busy couple of years, boss. Yeah, we got it done. So yeah, it's amazing, because it's now grown to like a team of 10 other nutritionists and our manager and our shop manager. So yeah, it's it's great. It's amazing. Yeah,
Finola Howard 6:45
bravo. Let's jump to Sarah. So what I also love about this it serendipitous relationship is that you are her leg while you're her lecture, or lecturing at the same time. I've definitely started.
Sarah Kelly 6:57
So I was one of your lectures at least. Yeah, I know. It makes them feel very old. i So likewise, I did my undergrad in sports science and health. And then I did my masters and PhD in clinical exercise physiology. And I sort of did a stint in a number of institutions or Waterford, it and it chirinos lecture in there for a couple of years. Before my dream job, my position, as head of sports science and health in DCU became available. So I ended up back in DCU, as chair of that programme, and that's what Michelle was finishing, you are towards the end, it's in your last year, perhaps Michelle, where Yeah, I think at that stage of your PhD, and it was after she finished her PhD, actually, we were looking for someone to cover. So exercise physiology lectures. So you, Michelle, we've crossed paths before we you know, conversations at this stage. And I think the clinic was just obviously taken off. But I was very aware of our, I also would have known her supervisor, so I knew that she was an excellent researcher, and you should be an excellent teacher. So I took her on board and to take I think a semester or two of those lectures. So we kind of had, you know, I we there was a mutual respect there. And I, I've always followed, like the free clinic. So once, if there was a lot of people would come to me at different stages asking for advice or recommendations about, you know, where to get information with regards to nutrition and weight loss, nutrition and fertility, pregnancy, hormone health, anything like that. So Michelle was always my go to. So I always trusted her because I always always said anything that Michelle posts or anything that Michelle puts up there, I know. And I believe that it will be you know, found in hard, solid science, everything is evidence based. And likewise, actually with her shop, you know, when people look for, you know, where she what fish oils should I buy, I used to just say if they're listed in the clinic, because I always knew the free clinic wasn't about making money as a supplement shop, by always knew that anything that she had listed there, I knew it would be well researched, that's kind of she was always my kind of safe person to recommend, which is very difficult if you're like, you know, on Instagram on social media these days. So there isn't too many that I would say that with such confidence. So I suppose we always follow each others.
Finola Howard 9:16
I also think you have this, this viewpoint in common. I think you possibly recognised a similar a kindred spirit as we would say, in that kind of making this knowledge more accessible, that believe in in high quality in anything that you do that it's evidence based. There's high quality, I get that from all of our conversations, I think, because I'm just flagging it because you're saying so many wonderful things about Michelle and I kind of want to reflect it back to you too. So
Sarah Kelly 9:53
Well, I think both of us knew that. Neither most would do when neither of us first started could sell anything or promotion. Anything that we didn't 100% know, would work or know that it's true that it's, you know, that it's evidence based. And even from a female perspective, I know we've had this conversation with you before fanola With regard to research, like, whenever I was doing my Masters, I, it was the first time that I was recruiting, I recruited females for my masters, which is really unusual. So you tend to be discouraged from doing that, because you have to, you have to work around females cycle. So when I was recruiting for recruiting, you know, my participants, I literally had to have stars on the wall. And I remember like, the lads used to laugh, it used to be like, because it was, I did it by hand, there was nothing, it was very, like, you know, through the days of the month, and everything and other big red marketer, Mark, and we called the period planner, and all the lads in the office, you could see this big chart and these the lavender, I was there, basically, okay, Mary can come in at the start of the month, because I had to time when they visited. So it slowed down my research massively, because I couldn't just find them or like, you know, do a week or two of research or data collection, I had to plan it around their cycles. So that was the first time I was the only person I ever remember doing that in the lab. And it was, that's when it kind of I realised, yeah, everyone, we all was just recruited, you know, young lads, kind of from, you know, athletes or people that were willing to do some of the exercise tests are kind of coming in and kind of volunteer their time, but they were always lads. And it meant that you could sort of bang out all of the data collection in a short space of time, whereas mine dragged out for a really long time, because if you missed them one month, you had to wait four weeks before you can get them again. So, really,
Finola Howard 11:43
but there that strikes me in previous conversations that we've had, that women are not just women, that I mean, that's, that's you putting that into practice. I'm sure. I've had conversations with doctors before about how so much of research and medical research is not done on women, because of this very reason. So, like, I'm heartened that you did that, even though it was probably incredibly inconvenient.
Sarah Kelly 12:17
It was and I actually didn't even realise at the time that I was doing, you know, I didn't know I look back, and I'm actually really proud to be able to say that and even get it at the time myself. I didn't even get that. I've never seen anyone else do anything like that, you know, when the lab before or talk about it? You know, I didn't and even the way I did I spoke real freely or the period plan or the period charge. Like, I didn't even get it. That was kind of the first time someone was even speaking like that kind of in in the labs. Yeah.
Finola Howard 12:49
We need more of it. You then went on. So what happened then? Okay, tell me the next stage share with Sudan with
Sarah Kelly 12:55
my PhD, I actually worked with people with chronic disease. So a lot of them were people who had had previous cardiovascular events. So they were all postmenopausal, it kind of didn't come into play. So I was able to recruit men, male and female for that project. But I suppose it was then I suppose jumping on so I was with them. I was lecturing in DCU, that sort of shell and I again, would have crossed paths on then I left ECU to set up a company in 2019. So it's an I was pregnant with my third child. And with that, so that's sort of glossing over that a little bit. But with that, I actually organised podcast, and I did a series and what I found I just kept getting drawn on and the lads sort of did point out, there's a bit of a theme here, I kept going back each week, or each guest, it tended to focus on female to do subjects. And I didn't sort of, I didn't plan that. But that's exactly like how it played out. You know, I had a pelvic health specialist, I got health specialists, and again, it all sort of came back to females, and that Michelle was one of my guests. So she was, you know, one of the first people that I thought of asking, and it was actually during that as well, we had a really good conversation on and off air, about the about women and about all and again, Michelle will probably give you a better explanation what she sees in our clinic. But there's just so much that women put up with and so much that women endure, you know, everything even with regard to the pelvic floor conversation and and that was probably what kick started things for me like I was pregnant with my second baby before I realised that there was such a thing as pelvic floor therapy. And I'm an exercise physiologist and I didn't know that and I remember being like hold on, there's a thing that we supposed to do it or it's a therapy or we you know, do you have to have an issue to do it is it you know, what is this? And I remember booking to have what they call like an MOT or a kind of just just to check that everything is okay. And loads of My friend's kind of like, Oh, are you having issues and I was like, well, not really like Not that I'm aware of. But I think it's really important to make sure that I don't. So during my pregnancy, I went and had, you know, a pelvic floor assessment, and a pelvic health assessment. And the information that I got, I remember leaving, and I remember my notes on my phone, like I filled my notes. And I remember taking it all down, and I remember leaving. And there was a number of different females in my life that I literally shared the information with straightaway, because I was like, we all need to know this, this is so important, but I had to pay on the camera, I think it was 120 Euro. And I paid that. And to me, that was important. And I remember speaking to other people who were pregnant this time, and they were like, 120, Euro, I don't really have any issues, I leave it until I have until there is an issue. And then afterwards, I remember going back, you know, they had told me, they advised me to come back 68 weeks, you know, postpartum and I went back on again, every single time that I went, and it was never something, you know, very alarming that spurred me to go, it was just something that I realised was really important. And it was really important to get my pelvic floor into a really good position for down the line. So even I remember someone said, you know, you might be you might not have issues now. But if you don't look after your pelvic floor now, when you hit menopause, fine, you could get hit with symptoms then. So every single time I had a visit, it was one of those things that I just think every female should do at every point. I mean, it shouldn't be expensive, there shouldn't be barriers, it should be something that is almost mandatory postpartum, I believe and I think there are countries in New Zealand and France, it might be put, you know, something that, you know, you don't get discharged from the hospital after having a baby until you have something like, you know, maybe that's I don't know if that's a tall tale, but it's a good thing. It shouldn't be a fact. You know, I just always remember speaking to Helen Keebler. With that, and being so frustrated about the lack of information, and I actually met Helen Keeble, who's an excellent pelvic health physio in the gym when I was pregnant. And I once I found out what she did, I literally homed in on her. And I had so many questions for her. And I remember she told me stuff that I was like, I never knew that. And I just was like, I'm so shocked with my background, that I hadn't ever even heard anything about it. And anyway, long story short, I just remember saying to her, but why like we were in the gym, and I sort of said, But why don't the coaches know that? Like, why don't people know this? And she said, it usually takes about 20 years for the information to make it from a research paper to the gym floor or into basically, and again, you probably find that Michelle, it's
Finola Howard 17:36
just so common across all of women's health issues. And it's really interesting that you bring the pelvic floor because there's got to be a future episode on this podcast. Because we're not edgy as women. And I'm I'm 54. And I know I don't know enough. And that's, and one of the conversations that I think we share, you would bear this out as well. Is that because I remember you saying this, this is the stuff we need to be teaching girls in schools like we need to have more information. Yeah,
Michelle Hone 18:05
absolutely. There's so much misinformation. There's women who are trying to get pregnant, and they don't even know whether they're ovulating. And if they don't know what ovulation is. They think like the only thing that we were told in school, remember that mean? Girls, maybe it was like don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die. We're taught to absolutely get pregnant. And it's not that straightforward. And this is just the basis if you can only get pregnant, which you one day of the month, one day when you ovulate, that egg survives for 12 to 24 hours. And that's the only day of the month you can actually get pregnant. Yes, sperm will survive for kind of five to six days within the female body. So there is a first fertile window you can actually only get pregnant and conceive on one day, something even just that as a basic like how are we not eating this in school? How are we not eating the different kinds of phases of our menstrual cycle cycle where sometimes we feel really good, really energetic, and sometimes we might feel quite low and quite moody, quite anxious, like these are the things that women need to understand. So they can just better understand their bodies and be a bit more compassionate with themselves. But well,
Finola Howard 19:09
what's your view on this idea of working to your cycle? You know, you you We use work already, Sarah but exercising to your cycle, but what even about working to your cycle and and from a scientific perspective, because often this idea of working to your cycle is presented as a Celtic goddess approach to how you live and work as opposed to a scientific approach to how you live and work. Yeah,
Michelle Hone 19:36
like to be honest, we actually don't have I don't feel like we have the research to draw really conclusive, like black and white recommendations when it comes to our cycle. And ultimately everyone is so different. So like, yes, they're like for the most part, a lot of people will feel quite good in that phase before the ovulation during ovulation like your energy is up, your mood is up. And then a lot of people will find Like towards the end of their cycle when they do their period in my software, PMS, they might be anxious, they might be tired. But then at the same time, when it comes to training, like we, there's kind of a lot of people are kind of jumping on this waggon, where they're like, Okay, you like you're going to feel amazing, you're going to hit all your PVS when you ovulate, and then don't go to the gym like three days before your periods just do nothing until eggs, when there's some people who PVS like the day after a period of the day, three days before their periods when they're not meant to be feeling good. So I don't think we're quite there with the training recommendations around. You'll see yes, and but then at the same time, it is good to be mindful that a lot of people won't feel like we're some people won't feel amazing like in that kind of later leaves your face. So if you don't feel like sticking to free nutritious foods, if you're craving chocolate, if you don't want to go to the gym, then it's probably a good idea to be a little bit compassionate with yourself force. As I said, I don't think we have the the black and white research shows yes,
Sarah Kelly 20:56
no, and even just I had a conversation with them. She's an Olympian. And she's gone to the Olympics again. And she is up in arms at the moment because she is trying to decide when she should stop breastfeeding. Because the last time she went to the Olympics, it just timed with her last, especially the way the way COVID, kind of through the years, she just stopped breastfeeding after she didn't stop breastfeeding. She planned on pumping when she was aware. So because it was in Japan, wasn't it. So there was I think it was very difficult to organise that the baby could go. But I don't know if you ever remember this, Michelle. But when you stop breastfeeding, you get this sort of low grade nausea, sometimes, and it's only if you just sorted probably need to be tuned into it. But like it, there's definitely whether it's a hormone dip, or hormones or something probably Michelle, that happens around there. But she went to the Olympics, and she was 100%, her performance was impacted by that. A no one in all of the team of people. That is with the Olympic Irish Olympic team, like no one was able to tell her or to advise her about what she should do or warn her. So now she's worried she's trying to time it. And she's sort of asking me questions, because she's wondering, when I stopped breastfeeding, When did my period come? Because she also is someone who has it in her head that if a period lands on a race day, it massively impacts her performance, like she can just write her performance off it. So she's trying to time us that she will stop breastfeeding, her cycle will be back, but it won't be back and land. Men have none of these things to even consider on there such poor advice for her like no one is able to she's asking me. And she's asking me off my experience, you know, which is up three babies? I mean, it's not exactly scientific evidence, you know? So it's just the amount of things women have to factor in consider. But
Finola Howard 22:46
I'm hoping that even with this conversation, because you're even informing me even more than previous conversations I've had with you that if we have more and more of these conversations, that it's not fixated around just one stage of a woman's life that there is this. There's this whole journey that a woman goes on. And and we're we're not informed enough. And we don't even know what questions to ask, because we've accepted so much. This is the other big thing for me. We accept that this is normal. And it's not normal. Some of this stuff, it's not necessary. Some of this stuff. No
Sarah Kelly 23:24
common isn't, oh, it was normal. Um, Michelle, you have a good line you've used before. And you talk about your period and how you go through your period and what you experience being like a barometer of your, how you've lived almost for the previous month. I really liked that concept.
Michelle Hone 23:40
Yeah, so like, we would consider it like your fifth vital sign. So like your order vital signs would be things like your heart rate, your breathing rate, your blood pressure, your temperature. And I always think it's so strange, because if you woke up in the morning, and your blood pressure's really low, you sound really faint, or your temperature was through the roof you weren't well, you go to the emergency room or the doctor and seek help. Both. If you consider your period, your fifth vital sign and you don't get a period or you just skip a month, one month and you doubt your cycle lens, instead of being 28 days, your cycle ends up being 70 days. We're just like, oh, yeah, I skipped a period this month. And I'm like, No, that is just because it's common doesn't mean that it's normal. Like it's not a good sign. It's like a barometer. As you sit there. It's like a barometer for your health. It's like your body trying to communicate with you. And if you have a missed period, and you don't have a period at all, you've really like painful debilitating periods. It's like your body like waving a red flag at you to be like, we need to do you need to do something about this. But we just because it's it's quite common. We're just like, oh, yeah, I missed a period or yeah, I'm in bits and just gonna pop funer fan for the next few days when we really need to be investigating this.
Finola Howard 24:56
That's just powerful. Like, yeah, FIFA To sign I love that. I wish I had known that when I was having periods. So, like,
Michelle Hone 25:06
if you even look like endometriosis, like the average, like the amount of time that it takes in Ireland to diagnose endometriosis is 10 years. And for anyone who has suffered of endometriosis, it's it can be horrific. It can be really, really, really difficult, really painful, really debilitating, like massively impact your quality of life. And it takes on average 10 years to actually diagnosis and
Finola Howard 25:30
doesn't need to take 10 years, if we were doing that fifth vital sign. Would we know faster? I know I'm oversimplifying? No, like,
Michelle Hone 25:41
this is why it's so good to have these conversations so that we will, okay, maybe it's not normal for me to be having nerve impulse, like three days of the month, because I'm in so much pain or taking time off work. Like yes, ultimately, when you get a period, your uterus is contracting and shedding the lining of the uterus. So as a result, a lot of people will experience discomfort and a little bit of pain because of those contractions. We shouldn't be having to take time off work or or take like significant painkillers with, like codeine in them. Do you know what I mean? So it's just important to know the difference, and to know when you need to seek help.
Finola Howard 26:13
Yeah, because I know I used to lose a day a month from really heavy periods and painful periods. I used to go to bed. And also the other thing interesting from a hormonal perspective, because we've had this conversation. I remember, the day before, sometimes, sometimes my periods would have been irregular. And maybe the day before. If I wasn't conscious that my period was due, if I wasn't keeping on top of it. I would have incredible, like a mood dip or a high. So something happened, it would take me I would be so low and so does not disturb. It's so distraught that I was so low, because I didn't know what was going on in my life that would cause me to feel like that. And it was really upsetting. And when I went, Ah, that's my period tomorrow. That's what's going on or when the next day came. It would just relax because I thought I didn't know what was happening. And it's so overwhelming. You're like, okay, my
Michelle Hone 27:15
art, I'm actually I always think it's right now that I'm doing my period, because I'll be I'll just burst into tears. I mean, most won't be like, what's wrong? And I'd like nothing. What everything. There's nothing wrong with it's like literally like clockwork four days beforehand, I guess that day. And then I'm like, Oh, my theories to four days. That's still, that's just how I roll.
Finola Howard 27:38
But also, I think for that to be expressed in a way where because I hear you both say this a lot to to be gracious with ourselves to give ourselves a break here that this is what's happening, instead of being something that sneered at and laughed at. Because that's how I grew up. You're on your period. Are you? Like, that's just incredible statement to make to women?
Sarah Kelly 28:04
Yeah, I think women are, are not letting their partners away with that anymore. You know, like, there's, it's, it's, they're not allowed to be dismissive. of things like that, or they're not allowed to be dismissive or rude, you know, periods. They're not allowed to speak like that, you know, because we've to write when I think that that used to be something that was allowed, where people be like, oh, you know, tampons or periods or anything like that, that married?
Michelle Hone 28:34
People, my column with a period, I'm like, it's a period. It's like, your friend, your flowers?
Sarah Kelly 28:40
Yeah, it's your fear. Yeah, when I hear fi women doing that, because I think women are what to young girls come through and teenagers, because young girls feel might feel embarrassed and dirty. But like, this is something that happens to females, when I hear say, women, my age, being a bit like I remember having a conversation and really encouraging someone to try a menstrual cup. And I remember her thing was, you know, she was nearly like, she's speaking as if this thing and I was like, You're speaking of it's something that happens 50% of the population. And that is the problem if females are, are talking about periods, like they're dirty, and there's something to be ashamed of, and something to hide away behind closed doors and don't, you know, you have your period, just lock yourself away. I remember been really disappointed with her thinking, that is such a bad message for young girls, you know, such a bad message, and we've spent our time. Like I, my husband, I think once or twice he might have maybe made a joke or said something but I sort of I don't want to cut the socks of what I started like straight away because I'm like, you have a daughter. I said, and we don't want our sons who are going to meet girls, and that this is a secret of thing that they have that you know it's dirty and you don't want to talk but it's I think it's really important that it is activates so openly and as Michelle said, to give it its correct name. And it's part of life. But don't add to the shame that women have been carrying probably more so phenomena, you would have noticed that, you know more. So I'll
Finola Howard 30:14
completely like I know that that statement of AAA in your flowers. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Yeah, the more and I do see the difference in how we speak to each other, and I and I'm very conscious that I have a son that I'm very conscious that he's aware of what it's like to be a woman and I talked to him about menopause so that he understands what that's like. So it is normalised that our differences are normalised and embraced. We also need to do the same for men. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally agree, shall we let's Can I I'd like to come back to how you guys came came together to form this business. So Sarah, you started a business called Circle of Life. Talk to me about that circle
Sarah Kelly 31:06
of life? Yes, we launched circle of light in, we launched, we went live, I left DCU in 2019. And we launched in July of 2020, in the height of the pandemic. So that was the time, you know, obviously, was was interesting. And we sort of pivoted, and as a result, we ended up, you know, supermarkets were still very much accessible. So we were able to get in the doors of supermarkets and tucked it once you were masked up, and all of that, you were able to talk to, you know, supermarket managers and stuff like that. So we landed ended up getting on the shelves across all of the multiples, which was amazing. And, and yeah, we had a really, I think it was to like two years. And we did really well, we did an amazing job with distribution. And there was a lot of learnings and I took a lot of what I have learned from circle of light has been amazing. I really have brought that into horology
Finola Howard 32:00
tell us what circle of life, what Circle of Life was, like,
Sarah Kelly 32:04
the circle of light was a range of granulated health drinks. So the and we had a range, but we had, we launched with six products between those two different types of product, and then it was different blends. So even looking back now, that was something that we were like, is this a good idea or bad idea, and it probably was a bad idea to launch with so many. But the way things were, by the time we were able to launch, because we did kind of pull back a lot with COVID. And then by the time we got launched, we kind of were like, No, we need to go with everything. So whether that was a good idea or not, it was probably quite confusing for people, because we spent so much of our time explaining what our product was. And when you're sitting on a SuperValu shelf, you're not there to explain that. So in that sense, we there was too much almost of an explanation, we were too new. So the products even now like there's people who were still in touch with me and you know, looking, they really missed the product. So they were excellent products, but it was like was kind of just a little bit ahead of its time. And what there were so like I said there was too much explaining behind them. And we were looking for a big behaviour change a big shift, you know, for people to embrace and to take them on a daily basis. So that was that was one of the difficult one of the challenges and one of the things that I suppose I learned, you know, you have to keep your message simple when it comes to marketing. You know, what's the expression of you're explaining you're losing like it's just it's too tricky people have no attention span. So if the I don't know what it is, you know in an instance nearly almost by looking at it, you get your the chances are you've lost them and even
Finola Howard 33:45
mean that's really good what you're saying if they don't know what it is just by even looking at it. Do you was there learnings that you took from that as well that you brought to her ology in terms of the brand and Hachi choses the naming of us the positioning of it all of that? Yeah,
Sarah Kelly 34:02
very much. So like the knee and we were both obsessed were so like, we love the name horology. So with the ology you know, the science it's a it's for both of us with the science background, we love that we're able to capture the science part of what we do. And then the horror that you know, the female so the science of her we just thought that her ology It was no for some people it may not be we're probably thinking like scientists, you know, some people might kind of trip over it a little bit. But in general, we think it captures everything that we wanted the brand to represent. And also with the NIAMS. Like if you look at our names, balance manual, and then like when we're describing our products like those words are used. So Menno is self explanatory. Obviously if you're if any symptoms of menopause or perimenopause, and then Zen, like Zen just came out of like, I think that you're just coming back from our era. had one day, Michelle, because you were like, your trend, we were talking about what the product does. And you were like, like everyone needs more Zen in their life. And that literally is. So it's it is self explanatory. And then balance as well. Again, Michelle, it's probably something you would you talk about a lot in terms.
Michelle Hone 35:17
Yeah, so the whole idea of balance is to bring balance to your mood, your energy, your hormones, your life overall, because we see, like so many people who are stressed and anxious, but they're also like, exhausted at the same time. So the whole idea of balance is just to stabilise the mate with their mood or energy, or they said their hormones. It's amazing for Hormonal Health. So that's, that's essentially balance. So it's in the name with all of the three products.
Sarah Kelly 35:45
And it's funny, because we have a lot of people who like manual is basically an upgraded version of balance, it has everything that balance has. And then it has vitamin K to or bone health. And it has added herbs, to help with symptoms of menopause or perimenopause. But it has all of the wonderful balancing ingredients of balance for what's happening is there's a lot of females who are around the age that they like, you know, they're enjoying men, oh, but they're watching. A lot of people talk about balance, and they're like, hold on, you know, I'm really enjoying manual, but I want some of this balance. So it's merely captured people's attention, because everyone likes, you know, the concept is coming through and the feedback. So it's interesting. So there's actually that's one piece that we're working on at the moment, we need to try to get that message out there to people, you know, if you're on men, no, you're not missing out on the wonderful, you know, the wonderful things that are, the balance will give you. So that's one of the things where we're like, Okay, we've missed a trick here, because people are getting confused with that. So that all comes back to sort of figuring out our message and our in our marketing and how we get our message out there.
Finola Howard 36:54
Let's talk about how the journey that you took to create these formulations because, yes, they sound amazing. And I can vouch for the fact that they're amazing, because I'm taking metal since you launched in January, and yeah, wow. They taste amazing. I feel good. And I have to share with you because I haven't shared this with you yet. Which is now when I'm going on my calls on Zoom. Everyone says you're glowing fanola. So to be a glowing lady in menopause is really interesting. So cool.
Unknown Speaker 37:30
Thank goodness. Absolutely.
Finola Howard 37:31
So what I want to bring you back to is you you closed circle of life, Sarah and Michelle Puglia phone and set.
Michelle Hone 37:43
Yeah, so I suppose ultimately, I have always wanted to set off as was Grace, the female health Superman range, because a lot of our clients, as was when you're when you're in the industry, you realise what's important, like the ingredients are important. The form of the ingredients are important the dosage, the bioavailability, which basically means how an ingredient gets into your system, and actually does what it needs to do, or what does what it says on the tin. And you realise very quickly that there's so this isn't to kind of put down other brands, but quality is so important. And I've seen the difference that like really good high quality ingredients and supplements can make to a women's lot a woman's life. And the issue is that a lot of our clients would be taken, I'd be recommended multiple different things like they'd be rattling around with all the tubes that I'd be recommending. So really wanted to have something that was a unique blend that had everything that you needed, and it would I knew that there was no way that I could do this on my own. So the first person I've heard of was Sarah, because ultimately because we have that same background, and I knew like Sarah, like you know, Sarah, like over the last couple of months working together, she's like, one of the most amazing be proof like this go very deep, like one of the most amazing people ever. And as a result, you know, that she's like, has that integrity has that honesty and ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about helping people like yes, the benefit is paying the bills and making money. But ultimately, like when we set up for ology, when I approached Sarah, it was because I knew that she would have that same integrity and honesty that I had when it came to formulating a supplement. And it would be first and foremost to help women because she's so passionate about about helping people. And so that's where it started. So I contacted Sara I was actually living abroad at the time. I sent her a message and I was like, let me she was I thought she was still working a certain life and I was like gosh, you probably never have time for like another project because it goes just throw it out there and she messaged back and she was like this is so mad I've just wind up with circle of life so she just finished off maybe like the week beforehand so we ended up staying on a call for like four and a half hours and then by the end of this like that's how her ology was born. So it's just my I would all call came by case.
Finola Howard 39:56
But I there's a story a piece that you said which I really love. And I think it's important for people to hear it. And they, and they said, and I think you've shared some stuff about this area as well. But you approached her ology with a dream, not with a budget. And when we spoke about this, you said, we probably did it all the wrong way for No, no, no. I don't think so. Because you you approached with a dream first with that desire to serve with creating something that would really make a difference to women's lives. And you figured out the budget afterwards. Yeah. Now that goes against, that goes against the grain of a lot of commercial approaches to business. But ultimately, I would, I would suggest that when you do it in this way, when it makes sense, you will, you will come with a better product. And with serving your client better, that the money will figure itself out once you you know, pay attention to the money afterwards. But you've got to get that right product first. Yeah. And when you guys spoke, you said it took longer than we expected because we took that view. Yeah, but I feel but from your tent, share with us why you feel that that was worth it.
Michelle Hone 41:11
I says, because ultimately, we went live with three products that like we are honestly like, so so so fried, like their own unbelievable. Like, I know, obviously, we're bias force, they, there's just nothing like this on the market like so, instead of going into it being like, Okay, I think women will probably spend like 40 euro a month on a supplement, we were like, Let's just make the Rolls Royce of a supplement. That's what everything that we would absolutely love into it, and see what the cost comes out at and then decide what r or P is going to be. And so just to kind of like to explain to people like what it means when like when myself and Sarah like sat down and formulated it is that we like handpicked every single ingredient, the form of every ingredient that goes into the supplement the dosage of every ingredient, we consulted different herbalist as well, because I wouldn't have a goal to go to understanding as nutritionists of herbal medicine. So we consulted to have like the the top and herbalist in Ireland to help us with especially with mono because there's a lot that's a big herbal blend in that specific product. So we ended up with something that we can completely wholeheartedly stand over and like means there is people like we're never going to be able to sell something that we don't believe in, we're just not, I just can't I can't do it. Like even with the fact and I give, I get approached by a company to do an unboxing Where do like to work with that brand. If the brand doesn't align, there's no way I literally couldn't come on Instagram stories and try and sell something that I don't absolutely love. So I think it makes us like ultimately mine is there, his background is in sales, but it makes it so easy to sell because we believe in it so much. And we know the difference that it's like, is making already to women's lives, and that it can make some other women's lives. So it was it was so important. That's the process that we talk.
Sarah Kelly 43:05
Sorry, phonology was seen, as you said, it took longer than we anticipated it to give because even as Michelle said, like we sat down to decide exactly what was going to go into the products. But getting our hands on those ingredients, wasn't as simple wasn't as black and white. And even we were dealing with manufacturers and trying to figure out, you know, how we could get this and how we don't get them, you know, in terms of the timing and how it was all going to line up. And we were there was pushback from you know, are manufactured to say that this was too difficult to get that this was too expensive to get or straight up challenge get that there was a number of those events kind of happened. And Michelle and I for a split second kind of looked at each other or kind of were like hold on a second, you know, that changes the game completely as in, that means our product will not be we can't put up that ingredient in because that ingredient won't do what it's what we want the ingredient to do. And we do know that the supplements industry is like a supplement industry is a funny space. You know, there's a lot of a lot of money spent probably towards marketing and branding and all of those things as opposed to going into making a good product. Whereas we kind of did the opposite of what a lot of the more commercially minded businesses probably do. But we were really determined that this is where we were going to go down. If we're gonna go down, we're gonna go down doing it this way. And this is the only way that we would entertain and kind of doing it. But we both went back to you know, manufacturing, we said that would be a deal breaker for us. So we give them more time. And in the process, we were like, Okay, we need to start looking around because we need to look elsewhere and maybe we need to leave the country to get what we want. But after I think maybe there was never maybe a week at most kind of different stages, they kind of would have come back and they had managed to kind of source the ingredients Yes, it was a little bit more expensive. But I think they were almost surprised as well that we were willing to pay the extra money to get something that worked. But now we actually have a wonderful relationship with this company, because I think they are now even perceive us to be different. They realise that we are in this in this game for a different reason to maybe the other people that they might be working with, they get there, they believe that we work to help people and we want to produce a product that works. So they're really the sort of
Finola Howard 45:28
there's two things. There's two things I love about this one, one. And I know it's an awful thing for me to say, but what what, what impressed me was that you stood up to the status quo. That as women, you stood up to the status quo when you went no, this is a deal breaker. We're not taking this. And I think it's often I'm, I'm being probably being unfair here. But often, as women, we don't always stand up to the status quo to say, No, that's a deal breaker. I'm not having that. And that really impressed me because I remember when this was happening, because we were having conversations at the time, because all of this stuff affected the launch dates and stuff. And I remember being so proud and delighted that you too, just went no, this deal breaker, we're not doing this. So that's the one one lesson. One insight I have from that conversation, that we need to do more of that as business women to stick to our guns and to change the status quo. The other thing that I remember the story that you shared, which was when you got the first sample, and you wait, and you've held the sachets in your hands, and they felt lighter than what you expected. Are you happy to talk about that?
Michelle Hone 46:46
Really what happened was we were meant to God we were thinking that we were going to go live in September but there was so many out there all those little as Eric said that all those little delays. And ultimately, we only got our hands on the product on what was it like the 22nd of December so you're like it's fine January launches, it's all good. But we needed to get our we needed to get our website like fully up and running and have good images. So Sarah drove to the manufacturer and bras three boxes back to her house. I drove to Sarah says this is all like literally three days before Christmas. It took three boxes and brought them to the photographer. And I remember saying Sara like what was it like was the sachet feel like like, Are they real heavy, because in my head, I was like, there's so many like good quality ingredients. They're all at a really high dosage. Like it's probably going to be really heavy Sasha they're going to feel weighty. And so I was like, No, not really. And I picked them up when I open the sash. I like looked at it and I was like quotable, hardly so. And then I realised I went home. And I looked at all the other supplements that I have in my breast. They all have malted extra metals or fillers in them. And I remember having the conversation with our manufacturer. He was like, Oh, do you want to bump the formulation up to five or six grammes per serving, we can add maltodextrin I was we were like, straightaway, we were like, No, we don't mind being three 3.6 grammes or like, three two point JS Yeah. It makes no odds. And for now, there was a total moment where I was like, Oh, my God, like, have we done something wrong? Is there not enough magnesium? It's because there's no fillers. There's no binders? There's no unnecessary stuff in the product. So thankfully, it's a good it's a good selling point as well.
Finola Howard 48:31
Yeah, but no, I I like it's everything you need. And nothing extra. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, exactly. What would you say your biggest learnings from a marketing perspective? So all these things, as you may like, you were so committed to bioavailability, which is I really, do you want explain again, what bioavailability means? Because that for me was I had to keep asking, explain it to me as we started working together. But talking about bioavailability and its importance.
Michelle Hone 49:05
Yeah. So why availability is basically how an ingredient gets into your body and does what it needs to do. And the prime example that I would use is different forms of magnesium, for example. So if you have a magnesium oxide, basically, it kind of like runs through your system and doesn't really absorb very well at all, and you're taking you might be taking 200 milligrammes of magnesium oxide, but you're not noticing the benefits because it's not actually having that physiological action in your body. Whereas if you compare that to what we put into our product, which is called magnesium by magnesium glycinate, it's much more bioavailable, it's much more readily able to get into your system and cause relaxation and make you feel good versus something like an oxide. So form is really, really important. And generally, you'll find the ones that have higher bioavailability are more expensive. So that's again, that was something that we had to factor in. Well, and formulating the product as well.
Finola Howard 50:01
Thank you for that. The other thing that I wanted to maybe get you to talk about was you're really you've had one full amount of people using the product. And one full month of, of numbers coming in, and you sent a message is going, where we can't get over it, how, how it's working. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 50:24
we're blown away,
Finola Howard 50:25
you want to talk about that you want to talk about also the nature of the launch to help people who are also launching two of the things that you think that you would like to share with other business women in terms of that. And also, let's celebrate her great congratulations on an amazing launch with an amazing product. Let's share what you learned.
Michelle Hone 50:43
I think it's good to mention his rally disaster a minute ago for him about like marketing, like, Sarah, like, we have had honestly like Sarah has been just so valuable for this whole journey because she took so many learnings from circle of life, it is insane. Like we wouldn't be where we are today. What I it's what I everything that Sarah learned in circle of life. And one thing that Sarah did on luxury, when he mentioned this is that they probably spent a lot of money on PR companies and marketing. And Sarah was like, Hey, before we like why don't we just see how it goes like just offs, we'll just launch it on Instagram on social media, to her friends, your family, and you'll see how it goes. Because that was a huge learning that Sarah had from circle of life that it didn't necessarily result in, in revenue and in sales. And so that's what we did. We just literally went live with, with nope, your company with no marketing expense whatsoever. And it was the best thing that we ever did. Because we've we've proved that, like, ultimately, we will invest in marketing down the line. But the product itself, like the branding is just standalone, like it sells itself. And now painfully, I suppose we always knew like because we formulated ourselves, we knew the effect that it was going to have like physiologically on women, we knew the feedback that we were ultimately going to get, but we didn't expect to get it back. So like literally within a few days, there was people DMing us messages being like, Oh my God, my sleep is amazing. My mood is so much better. My energy is amazing. Thankfully now like it's five weeks live, and we're starting to get the people haven't gone through a periods. And so they're noticing that their PMS is dying and they're just feeling so much better. They're not again, taking time off work, and on pop and paint painkillers. So yeah, the feedback has just been insane. Like, we can't wrap our heads around this. It's amazing.
Sarah Kelly 52:35
I don't even know what to just on that. Because I think you were on you were probably on the receiving end of the conversation. Whenever we were at the early stages. And we you were recommended to us, like straightaway, like I was really sceptical or really cynical, because as Michelle said, We haemorrhaged money, because we were we haemorrhaging money listening to people say that they could do X, Y, and Zed. And what I found was, I suppose I this was my second bite was my first kind of experience in business. So again, I'm, you know, the sort of person so we, you know, we took people on board, and they were telling me that they're going to do that. And I was like, okay, you know, they're gonna do that. And then I found that I was defending their existence to the rest of the company, as opposed to what I learned very quick. And I learned this from my previous partner, he was ruthless. And if he saw someone said that they could do something, he'd give them a chance, you might give them a second chance, but if they weren't doing it, we couldn't afford to keep them keep pinging them. Whereas I found that really local, we're just just gonna get rid of them. No, you know, like, I find that. So there was a real naivety in me back then. And I found that tricky as well. And with sales as well, you can't ping someone, you know, to sell your product if they're not selling your product, because if they're not selling your product, there's no money coming in, but you're still giving them money. So there was a lot of, in that, that kind of ruthlessness of him. I I've No, it hasn't changed who I am ultimately, but I am much more careful and much more calculated. And when you were so we were highly recommended. Because we were at the start and we were you know, we were all like Oh, we want to do this and it was all you know, ideas and concepts and but we needed to bring it down and make it make horology a brand. We weren't really good at get we couldn't get that we probably weren't even making ourselves. We weren't disciplined enough and sitting down and doing that and when we did sit down to do it with no structure we didn't know where it even start doing that. So when you were recommended to us my I went I said to you when you told us you know your price. straight off the bat. I was like look, I've hammered money with people like you before. Was probably
Finola Howard 54:57
was nobody liked me Sarah But
Sarah Kelly 55:01
my straightaway my instinct was like, you know, how is she going to do all that? She says she's going to do? You know, I just couldn't understand. And I think Michelle and I were on a call with you for a very quick introduction, but very quickly, both of us were like, Oh, she's, she's very good. So smart. Straight away, there was a difference. You were different fanola? Yeah, you really were and what you were able to do and how you were able to pull stuff out of our heads, and then bring it all together so selected succinctly, and to make it into these really clear brand messages and what our strategy was going to be. That's where I wouldn't have that naturally. I wouldn't, like I wouldn't have that background. And, you know, I would I Michelle, even you've never had to do that with the way because your growth was so organic. With the free clinic, you never had to sit down and plan. So for that, you know, fanola, you were the one person that we did spend money on last summer. And it was yeah, it was so worth every penny, thank you for what's
Speaker 2 56:09
funny is we went into it. And we're like, Well, why don't we just do five sessions, like we're only going to need? Like, we know,
Sarah Kelly 56:16
you're like, I think you might you might have said, can we just tell her to make the five sessions into three sessions
Michelle Hone 56:27
when we genuinely went into it, knowing that we knew how to market the products, but then I also think that because we both have a scientific background, that doesn't always translate. So you got us to be like to really, really hone into like, who is your customer like water? They do? And how are they speaking? How are you speaking to them? What is your like brand vocabulary, and we were like, Oh, God, now we need some more time this woman.
Sarah Kelly 56:51
Yeah. And you did you pointed I think that we words on bioavailability is one of them. That's a word that we use so flippantly. But you and I remember you put your like, hold on, what are you saying like you kept pulling us back. And I know, Michelle, and I could be in could do an ad or do an interview. And we could remove that word like and we wouldn't even wouldn't think twice that the listeners don't actually understand what that word means, or that they can't even hear what we're saying. So like, there was a lot of that where you kind of brought us down to earth, I think and you kind of levelled and made us make us realise that? No, we're not talking to each other. You talk us out of our echo chamber actually. Just about
Michelle Hone 57:28
say laughs as I say that's Yeah, yeah.
Finola Howard 57:32
Well, we need that, you know, we need that from a marketing perspective. But also, it's, I always talk about, I mean, this is called your truth shared, it's uncovering truth, because your truth is so second nature to you, you can't, you can't see it, and you can't hear it. Because it's just second nature to you. And what you're trying to do is give your customers the language by which to understand how they can solve their pain with you. Yeah. It's really funny, because there's a lot of negativity about marketing. And I had a conversation yesterday with somebody going, I studied marketing for 20 years, and I hate it. And I'm like, Well, I've studied all my life. And I love it. Because this is what happens. People like you get to solve problems in the world, because you get to communicate it in a way that people can receive it. And that, for me, is beautiful marketing, because it's marketing, that helps make a difference. That's why I do what I do. Yeah. What would you like to leave people with today?
Sarah Kelly 58:40
I think you asked a question there actually, slowly, you know, in terms of advice, and maybe other women who are at similar stages, there's a couple of things, you know, with regard to our launch, and when we were ready, and something Michelle and I had to remind each other because both of us would have kind of perfectionist nature, I think, you know, we both would kind of be like that and would find it. Yeah, yeah. And I think even that's probably something that I've taken them circle of light as well. Like you can't you cannot like that will delay things. So watch. On Duff, the thing, I think we the mantra, you know, towards when it was getting to the stage is like we can hold up back because it's not perfect. Like, we're just going to delay ourselves too much. And at the pace that things are going to move at, you have to be able to make a decision and risks that it might not be perfect or miss that there's a little mistake in there. You'll deal with that. And so our mantra kind of became, you know, perfection. Perfection is the enemy of progress. So what we had to sort of keep checking each other because there has been times where Michelle has been like, Oh, what if this isn't ready, or no, that's not and I'm like, we have to go with it. Like we have to Let's push and just keep moving and we'll change it for the next iteration or you know, we change it the next time we get it right. So I think that was something that is good. But
Finola Howard 1:00:00
that's a really tough, tough decision to make. And I hear you. But it's this because you also want to make it the best product that it can be, so that it has legs so that the launch goes well, because your feedback is good. Well,
Sarah Kelly 1:00:15
that was something that was No, it has to do with like, even say, the, like, Michelle would have loved us, even with regard to our first boxes, that there would be really luxurious, you know, really kind of heavy and strong and almost reusable. Whereas I know from my experience, the packaging, whole thing is a whole, like it's a kind of once you start going down kind of as it's a whirlwind. And it's really hard to get your head around. And I think with this, we're really happy with the boxes. But we had, that was something that Michelle would have liked to, you know, launch as a really luxurious brand, straight off the cuff. And that was something that she had to kind of come to terms with, she's not going to have, you know, her dream box just yet. Yeah.
Michelle Hone 1:01:06
We were due to run out of stock of one of our blends in the next probably in the next week. And we got to put in our second orders the other day. And there was like there was something that I want to change with the pocketing and the manufacturer came back and said, Gosh, it's gonna take a long time. I think they'll just go just go. Yeah, we need it. So we're getting there. And you,
Finola Howard 1:01:29
you shared this beautiful quote with me as well, which is a really good lesson even to leave people with is, if you're not embarrassed by your first version of your product, then you launched too late. Yeah, I agree. Reid Hoffman,
Sarah Kelly 1:01:40
I think that is actually something that always I've kept in the back of my mind, if you're there, I think that's really I take great comfort from that. Because yeah, just I think it takes it takes guts, I think to proceed with that, you know, if you're in any way insecure, or you know, unsure of yourself, I think you don't really have the, you don't have the guts to do something like that. So yeah, I think don't hold yourself back and don't slow yourself down. Because inevitably, it's not just a couple of days, you end up wasting money. And then it's six months, and then you're past half a year. And then I know like I said, that's what happened. You know, I experienced that with circle of light, I think I wasted so much time trying to source the perfect packaging. And at the end of the day, we ended up going with something that we weren't where we were at the start, you know, and it was just all of that time was wasted, trying to be perfect.
Finola Howard 1:02:34
I think that's a great way to leave our discussion and we're going to leave links to where you can get her ology and hear all about it. And I think the ladies are going to do a coupon code for us for a period of time as well so that you can try it out and have glow would be glowing like me. Thank you so much, guys.
Michelle Hone 1:02:58
Thanks so much for having us.
Sarah Kelly 1:03:00
Thanks a million fanola I
Finola Howard 1:03:03
hope you enjoy that episode. And if you'd like to find out more about her ology, then check out her ology. supplements.com that's H E R, o l o g y supplements.com. Even better, why not try their supplements? Use the coupon code YTS 10 for 10% off? I know, I'm glad I did. And if you'd like to support the show, please follow or subscribe on your chosen platform makes all the difference to the impact that I'd love this podcast to have on the world. deeper conversations that allow us to grow, to celebrate each other's truths and to know that there are many who are working with a greater purpose in the world. Thank you
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