Shelley Rostlund 0:00
86% of us are going to have to reinvent our jobs in the next five years. We've always got to do that in marketing anyway, but a lot of the jobs and the tasks that we think we're doing now that are valuable are becoming replaced. We actually have to heighten our game as to our uniqueness, and we can only really do that if we take that reflection time and do personal branding.
Finola Howard 0:22
That's Shelley Rossland, personal brand strategist and fellow podcaster. She's one of the first people I told about my joyful, million goal. I knew she'd appreciate it, and I knew she'd have some insights for me. Some time ago, she did an episode on her podcast about the difference between being a subject matter expert and being a thought leader, and I felt this would be worth exploring in more depth for you as listeners and for me on this journey, and Shelley never disappoints, so lean in and take a listen.
Finola Howard 0:53
I'm Finola Howard, Business Growth strategist with a joyful heart, and your host of the your truth shared podcast. I believe that every business has a story to tell, because that's how the market decides whether to buy or not, and your story has to resonate with who you are and with the people you want to serve. And this podcast is about helping you reach the market in a way that feels right to you. So if you're an entrepreneur with a dream you want to make real, then this is the podcast for you, because great marketing is your truth shared.
Finola Howard 1:31
I have a lovely, lovely note the change in the tone of the podcast my lovely friend, Shelley Rossland, welcome, Shelley. Hello. Hello.
Finola Howard 1:44
Shelley is with us today because Shelley is brand strategist and has a an amazing podcast called the brand compass. And one of her episodes, and she's been speaking about this for a while, has been about the idea of the difference between thought leadership and subject matter experts. So thought leader, leadership visionaries and subject matter experts. And I kind of want to lean into this, and I'm doing it from a very I'm doing it for you guys for listening, but I'm also doing it for myself, because I'm thinking, and I, and Shelley was one of the first people I spoke to about to say that I was going to make this big declaration about a million euro turnover, turnover business. You can't even say it yet.
Finola Howard 2:26
So So Shelly, because this is important for me about positioning, okay, but it's also important for everyone listening. And I don't think people think enough about
Finola Howard 2:38
the difference between a subject matter expert and a thought leadership visionary. So can you tell us or explain to us what the difference is in my mind, right? So this is in your mind, yeah,
Shelley Rostlund 2:51
okay. It's a happy place your mind.
Shelley Rostlund 2:55
Lots of things flying around in Shelley's head,
Shelley Rostlund 2:59
yeah. So in my mind, and I've just come to this just naturally as because I am a learner. I'm very, very I'm a voracious learner, and I like to see smart people. I like to see smart people speak on stage. I like to engage with them. So this is just kind of over the years, this has come to me. I like working with subject matter experts because they're knowledge workers, right? I feel like thought leading visionaries. For me, there are subject matter experts, but actually they're the cream of the cream at the top of the pile of subject matter experts. Because I feel like thought leading visionaries do need to have a deep sense of knowledge, a deep sense of humility about the knowledge that they carry. So humility. Why do you say humility?
Shelley Rostlund 3:45
It's a mixture. Humility, for me, is a mixture of humanity and humbleness.
Shelley Rostlund 3:51
Because, you know, you get those experts who, you know, they think they're the bee's knees because they think they know everything. And for me, that's a bad example of a subject matter expert or even a thought leading visionary, that the whole thing about thought leading is that you're leading people's thoughts and thinking. And I feel like you need to have a sense of responsibility if you are going to be someone like that. And also you can't say and there's a lot of people on LinkedIn who have this as their headlines. I am a thought leading visionary. No, you need to have that third party pointing at you to say you are thought leading, to say that you are this thing. Because if you're saying you're thought leading, you're in a bit of a vacuum. Is it an indication if you're saying you're a thought leading visionary,
Shelley Rostlund 4:42
by saying that, does that mean you're not? It doesn't mean you're not, but I would quite like you to provide some evidence. Okay, so whether that's coming through from feedback from other people, or you've got a body of work, you know, Daniel Priestley is a very big one for saying, Don't ever delete your old stuff.
Shelley Rostlund 5:00
Stuff. You know, he's very much, he's like, he's just everything you write, everything you do documented, whether it's your very first video that was 10 years ago, or, you know, your notebooks keep all of that. Because what that actually is, is a trail of your discovery and learning, of your knowledge, and how your knowledge has just gotten better and better and over time. And if you actually are thought leading or visionary, that's quite easy to prove, if you've documented your thoughts, because actually you'll be able to see came from like I can quite come Yeah, and I could quite comfortably say, when I first started out with my agency, it was social media specialists. At that time, that was 2010 nobody would listen to me in 2010 pictures. You know what it was like? Yeah, I had to draw pictures. Nobody would believe me. It flippant. Took forever for everybody to get to where they are. Now we're in 2025 and I've already moved on like a couple of leaps, because I'm like, now I'm really frustrated about other things that nobody's listening to me to but if I wrote those things down. Only then can I start saying, well, actually, I'm futuristic, or whatever it is, you know, you just see ripples coming. I'm not saying I'm thought leading. But can you see documented?
Speaker 1 6:12
Come on, you knew that was coming.
Shelley Rostlund 6:17
I need a third party to recognize that and say that I don't, I can't. I feel like I can't say that. All I can say has been been freaking frustrated when people don't come
Finola Howard 6:28
with me. What are you thinking about then? What are you thinking about that you think nobody's listening
Shelley Rostlund 6:33
to at the moment? Yeah, now. Now. No five years ago,
Finola Howard 6:37
no joking.
Shelley Rostlund 6:42
Um, yeah, it's this element of that when I'm focusing now, it's this element of personal brand, because I feel like people have been drumming this drum for ages, but it's become the importance is so important now with AI that, you know, it's, it's so important now that everybody really takes that reflection time and really figures out, what are their human talents? Why are they here? Because we did, you see that report from CRPD, the future of work where, like 86% of us are going to have to reinvent our jobs in the next five years. I mean, I know we got, we've always got to do that in marketing anyway, every five years, especially digital marketing, yeah, but now think about that times Max now, because we've got this AI element where actually a lot of the jobs and the tasks that we think we're doing now that are valuable are becoming replaced, we actually have to heighten our game as to our uniqueness, and we can only really do that if we take that reflection time and do personal branding. So I feel like that's important.
Finola Howard 7:45
Do you think that AI are is now? Are now AI as a you know that it's the subject matter subject matter expert, and that there will be no more subject matter experts. Or what are you thinking? How do you perceive? Ai, in this,
Shelley Rostlund 8:05
I saw a really great guy speak about this last week, and he didn't go into tools, which I love, because I'm like, for me, tools and trains are fleeting. It's actually the thing, the thinking and the critical thinking that sits behind where society and the world is moving right. And what he was just trying to get across is, you know, this is a massive change. Yes, there's no general consumption of it yet, but there will be, almost to the point of, it's even more important than the internet. That made me immediately start, you know, paying more attention. But he's saying there is this important element of, you need, this iteration between human and AI, human and AI, but actually us as humans, we actually get we have to get better at asking better questions. I thought, oh God, we're in trouble. There are so many people that ask really bad questions. So I'm hoping for humanity that might be a good thing, where we actually have to learn how to define what we're wanting, what our outcomes and what we're looking for. We can ask better questions. So I feel like it's something that is going to help us to shape things going forward, but it's definitely going to reduce the workforce quite a bit in so many things that we can't even think about yet. So we really do need to up our game as humans.
Finola Howard 9:16
But I think when I think about this, I think, and I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and just experiencing it a lot recently, which is that I do believe it has the capability to make us better humans, if we're smart about it and if we're open to it. I'll give you an example of of where sometimes this goes wrong and and it then also makes me think a lot about the importance of self awareness. And I've always been a real advocate of you need self awareness to be successful in business. You need to understand who you are, where you are, what your limits are, so that you can work on them, to remove them. Like, to actively remove them. It's where the self awareness piece has to come. But interesting in how we use as marketers, we're using AI to help us get things done faster to actually we start with training it in our voice and then actually leveraging it to get us get stuff done faster. But what was interesting someone on one of my programs has been teaching AI her voice. And the reality is that when she was in college, she has a tendency to acquire lots and lots and lots of information and gets overwhelmed by all of the amount of information. Whereas if you look at my AI, if we're it's much more honed, or it's, I take it piece at a time. It's a very you can tell the difference between both voices. I find that very interesting, but it meant that that tool was actually hurting her, because it wasn't helping her get there faster, it was keeping her in her own uh, interesting. Yeah, her own, her own whirlpool of overwhelm was keeping her there because it was her voice. And so what we decided to play with was, let's, like, create a new account with a different email address and teach it a different way teach
Shelley Rostlund 11:21
it better? Yeah, I was gonna say, somehow you got to teach it better, because you as a human also have to know yourself well enough in order to get the AI. It's like training a new staff member, isn't it? I don't think I answered your question earlier, because you said, with AI, would we still have subject matter experts? I think the thing that we will always have as humans as context, you know. So AI can get better and it can get smarter, and hopefully it will start questioning it. There are elements to it now that are starting to question itself as well. So you can always give it a job to do, and instead of you having to ask questions, it asks itself. But I think you as the human will always have the context. So from a strategic perspective, you as a human will always have to look at whatever it is that the AI is doing and go, Yeah, factually, what you're saying is actually true, but actually in the context of what's going on right now, they're not going to know about the, you know, the the nuances of what's going on in society, or, you know, what's important at the moment, or actually is really off topic, and you really, really shouldn't talk about or not. Do you know what I mean? Not get into you as a human. Are always going to have that contextual purpose. I worry about the younger generation. Can't remember if we had this discussion discussion before, but for us as Gen, Gen X, we we had to learn everything before all of the tools came out, you know? So we had to learn how to make something, or create something, or how to get better at something. Because we had a we had time to experiment, time to reiterate, that's the only thing I worry a little bit about in terms of newer generations growing up with the technology, is is there critical thinking going to be messed up a little bit because, or will they learn a different way to do things? I don't know, because we'll know how to unpack something. We'll know if something is not right, we'll know kind of where to to go to try and unpick what went wrong. But will newer generations, that's the only thing I kind of worry a bit more about.
Finola Howard 13:20
Well, there's a view that they are trained in this new society, so therefore, like we already know, there's stuff going wrong. But I kind of live in hope that they are, they are finding a different way, because we're as human beings, as a species, are really adept at, you know, changing, pivoting, you know, taking things in and looking at it differently. It still always comes back to self awareness for me. So always back to that and being able to be self aware. Let's come back to our thought leadership, like how important you mentioned in your episode, which was episode 28 of your podcast, you mentioned that you were at um atomicon A while ago, and you talked about how the need for thought, leading visionaries going forward, and that subject matter, subject matter experts, we don't really need them anymore, because
Shelley Rostlund 14:19
tell me more about that. Yeah, this is Drew Davis. Was in a keynote that drew Davis did, and it really made me think, because he's like, oh gosh, you're right. Because everybody calls himself an expert, I think that's what he was trying to get to, he said. But actually what people are wanting is people that are visionary, and when, when you're visionary, you kind of clear the mist as well for people, and you're able to kind of extrapolate thinking over time and space. I try to explain it so it's almost like the metaphor I use to describe this. I did say it in the episode was between Bluetooth and mobile phone technology. If you. Compare the two different types of technology. So from an expert's perspective, you kind of brought in, like Bluetooth technology, where it's a very, very simple connection between two devices to, you know, to basically fulfill a very simple function, they've got to be in very close proximity to each other. But if you think about mobile phone technology we're talking like it's much higher level, much more far reaching. Can even be, you know, thinking global network, which has limitless potential in terms of utility and value, and that's kind of where your visionary is sitting, because they not only do what subject matter experts probably do is where they meet the client, where they are, they put the solution together, them, guide them through towards, you know, you know, fixing whatever the challenges or bringing them to your solution or transformation. But actually, what a thought leading or a visionary person would do is they would also try and challenge the thinking of the client, so they'll give them more context as to maybe what's happened in the past, what they can see coming in the future, and then help them make a decision as well by weighing up almost insight and foresight. Some subject matter experts do do that, but not all of them. All of them will go in, almost like a surgeon, do the job they've come in to do and
Finola Howard 16:18
walk away. Why? What stops someone from becoming a visionary?
Shelley Rostlund 16:24
They may not have that strength. Finola, we know, we know that people, you know, not everybody, has that strength. Some, some experts, like to just go in fix the problem they've been brought in to do. But I think if you get someone who is a bit more thought leading and a bit more visionary, they're almost not just looking at the problem that's sitting in front of them, they'll actually look at the bigger hole, and not just the bigger hole of the client or the business they're in, but they'll look at that in context of what's going on in society, what's going on in the world, where is technology going? Because not all subject matter experts do that, that I've come across,
Finola Howard 16:59
but also, I think we don't need visionaries for every role. No, we just, you know, because sometimes someone needs to be that person who goes in, fixes it and just
Shelley Rostlund 17:10
does the job Exactly. And we can't all be visionaries, yeah. So again, it's, it is a strength thing. So I think, I just think beware, like for everybody listening is, if you do bring somebody in to to to help you with a particular issue, you know, and experts are coming. If you are needing someone that is visionary, you probably looking for a completely different type of individual. So just make sure that you're qualifying in that process to figure out what you're actually needing for what's going
Finola Howard 17:37
on. But do you think the client always knows? Nope, which they need. No,
Shelley Rostlund 17:42
no, I don't think they do, but that's just the unfortunate
Finola Howard 17:49
way of but it's, it's interesting to state it here like to so you know, we're also have listeners who are, who have our business owners, or part of the leadership team who are listening, who may not realize maybe I should think about this differently. Maybe it's not just the expert for this. This very clearly scoped out job. Perhaps what we need in the business like so that means your leadership team has to be visionary in and of itself. And not all leaders are visionary either.
Shelley Rostlund 18:17
Yeah, but this is the only other thing, like, are you in if? If? If you've got it's nice to have that on your team. But are you still in a vacuum? Though, if you are visionary, are you in some kind I'm asking those questions. See, what you think are they're not still in a vacuum because they're in that business. Because we all know people who are employed and are in that business, they're highly focused on that business. If you do have a visionary on your team, I think the onus needs to make sure that they're getting some kind of external reference as well, so that they are not just staying within the problems of what or the challenges that are going on within their business or within that industry. Because it might be that you need to plow into those strengths of visionary and make sure they're going outside of the industry make sure someone who's in the shoe industry goes and plays in the, I don't know, balloon industry. And because I think, if you as a visionary, I think you need that. I don't know what you think. I think you need that cross reference.
Finola Howard 19:15
Well, there's an interesting example of that. When I think in the Mayo Clinic in the States. I think there was some surgical team they need. They knew that their surgical team wasn't fast enough, and so they went to Ferrari to their pit crew, to get the pit crew to teach them how they worked. Oh,
Shelley Rostlund 19:34
I wish I could have watched that.
Finola Howard 19:35
Yeah, really interesting. And so it always, it always interested me over the years, when someone would say to me and have you worked in this industry before? And I'm like, it's actually irrelevant.
Shelley Rostlund 19:49
Yeah, I I've never worked I've never had a client. I've never had two clients in the same industry. Because I feel like it limits my thinking, but it also limits my ideas. So. You said to me, surely, you need to specialize in the property industry. I'll just fall asleep, because I'd be like, I just, I can't, you know, because I get all of my ideas from completely different industries. So I like the fact that someone will come to me and I go, Oh, like, you just said, like, Okay, you in healthcare. Did you go and look at an f1 team? You know, that's that would be like, That would be my jam. I'd be like, quiet. You don't know where you get your influence from. You don't know where you get an idea from. I remember Daniel Priestley said before he started, you know his key person of influence, and because now they're, you know, they're massive. I don't know if you remember in one of his earlier books, he said that when he was trying to figure this out, like, how do you do something that you can replicate in other countries? He looked at Cirque du Soleil. I love that. And the way Cirque du Soleil was set up in that it's the same experience, but very different around the world, but it's literally a plug and play business model, you know. And that's where he you know. So for business consultancy, he looked at the theater.
Finola Howard 20:59
So you your area of expertise. You work with subject matter experts. Okay, do you find that they all want to be thought leaders so they don't attack, they don't attach that phrase visionary on the end. Thought Leaders don't generally don't attach visionary on the end. But you think those things are connected? I think
Shelley Rostlund 21:20
they're connected because I think you almost have to have some kind of visionary strength within you in order to be thought leading. Because the whole idea of thought leading is that you moving people away from a way they're doing something to consider an alternative way to do something, you know. So I think you almost need to have some kind of visionary strength, where you can connect those dots to see that that is maybe something that is possible, probably more than maybe, because you're almost your gutter saying, I know that this is the way things should be. Do you know what I mean? So, no, not everybody wants to be necessarily visionary. I think there are. I had a call this morning with a lady, and she's lovely, and she said, yeah, that's I just, I want to be identified as somebody that is thought leading this, you know, I have been in this industry a long time. You know, there's a lot of things that I think needs to change. And you know, I'm already experimenting. And, you know, she's already practicing what it is that she preaches, if she likes, which is just my kind of people just but I'm not doing the right thing, so people can't see me and hear me. You know, in order to be thought leading you, actually, you've got to just go up that extra bar, and you've got to come out from behind that tree, and you've almost got to step up that whole visibility thing if you want to be seen, to be thought leading,
Finola Howard 22:40
because one of your premises is that it's other people who say that you're thought leader and and to me, that says that. All right, I have a question for you on this. Yeah, okay. Does that mean it's about scale? You can't be thought eating unless you're thought leading at scale. So like coming back to your idea of the Bluetooth versus mobile? So Bluetooth says to me, is that I have a small so I'm subject matter expert, yeah, a small group of people that I talk to all the time in the same pool, and I'm the big fish in the small pond. Whereas thought leading means you have to be able to answer this question, which in this area that I talk to a lot with clients, which is purpose, mission, vision. And you would be surprised about how much people resist that idea of purpose, mission vision, even, even the visionary people, they hate to nail that idea of what does. And so that's kind of interesting, but from from a scale perspective, to get to that visionary piece that is at a bigger level. Question mark,
Shelley Rostlund 23:45
yeah, hmm. Scale such a for me. It's a dirty word, scale. Why? Well, because scale has a has an old rhetoric from the bro dudes, you know, the ones that have the jets and stuff, but because, actually it's more about and I know, I know we've had these discussions around growth, and actually, what's the definite definition of growth? Definition of growth doesn't mean to be bigger, more, you know, more stress, more, whatever you know growth can be what you want it to be. And I think scale is very similar. But if you are wanting to become thought leading. You can be very, very strategic about how that happens, because you, you almost drill down into, okay? For me, it's not going to because I'm just fussy as hell, but I, I would not want just anybody telling me that I'm thought leading, because I know in the social media world that we live in, some of that stuff is so fluffy right now that I would place it's like awards. Really hate awards. I don't feel like there's a lot of credibility. And then there's too many of them. There's only very specific awards that somebody would even want someone to even contact me about. You know, like a Nobel Peace Prize, no pressure. Yeah.
Shelley Rostlund 25:00
Yeah, you Go Shelly
Shelley Rostlund 25:03
or a Pulitzer, do you know, you know, but it's, it's just, I'm kind
Finola Howard 25:07
of with you on that, yeah. I mean, there is value in that, like, especially for small businesses. Yeah, we're starting out, it's really good because it gives confidence. It's, you know, recognition, what
Shelley Rostlund 25:18
they're saying as well. Yeah, it's all good, yeah, but I think what was I saying now with the scale? But yeah, so I think if you really strategic and you actually decide, okay, what would mean a lot to me, if somebody said that I was thought leading, who would that be? Is it peers? Are they specific peers? Is there something industry wise? Because if there are people you know within your industry and within your peer group or within your colleagues, they've got enough experience of you, whether you've written a book, you've got a podcast, or you go and speak at conferences and things like that, be very, very selective of where it is that you go and do that. You know, because if you are thought leading, it's going to become apparent incredibly quickly if you actually are just practicing what you think is coming, what you what you think your way is, and whatever that is, and sharpen up that message, that scale bit, will come pretty quickly if you just, you know, it's like, you just pick the right bullseye, and then, bam, that momentum just goes. And whatever that momentum looks like for you, it doesn't have to be overwhelming, but you can be quite strategic about that. No one's gonna think you thought leading if you're locked in your office on your computer and you don't talk to anybody all day. So there's an element of having to be heard and actually just shopping out and visibility,
Finola Howard 26:36
I mean, it's, it is the, it is the stage that I'm entering, which is that level of visibility, because when you're when you're working and like, there's an episode at this point, I will have released it at this point, but where I have made a decision of a date by which I won't take on any more, one to one clients, because it's restrictive and it's limiting, it's risky, You know, because it's a nice comfort zone of where I've worked for a long, long time. But it's time to move on.
Shelley Rostlund 27:08
So what does that look like for you then?
Finola Howard 27:15
No, it's I find it hilarious, because I'm always the one asking the questions, okay, I've got to shape it, and I've got to be more visible about it, and I've got to making this declaration. For me, was very interesting because it, what it resulted in is a click, you know, where the jigsaw pieces just clicked, or the cogs just clicked together. And it just made sense. It made sense that I needed to prove what I said in the first book, and because it was always a first book for me, and then I just realized that I really want to prove that. I really want to prove that there's a big number associated with joy, that it's not just because so often women in business will say, Well, I'm happy in my business. I don't have to make a lot of money. I just have to make enough. And this idea of enough, but who said that that is a limiting belief? And I'm wanting to explore that. I'm wanting to explore who says it can't be, it can't be a big number, and a million euro is not a big number. To a lot of businesses, it's actually quite a small number. But for a small business, it's a big number, and it's a worthy number that someone has to pay attention to, attention to, yeah? And that's and then it means that the theory is true. You can use joy as a compass,
Shelley Rostlund 28:38
yeah? And it's you that said to me, Finola, that there's vulnerability, and just before you got to take that leap and jumping into your genius zone, and that you're leaping right now, yeah. I mean, you know you're a genius, and you know what your zone is, but you're doing the whole like,
Finola Howard 28:56
ah, yeah. Oh, and it's it, and it's an interesting feeling, because, because, in the book, I say trust, and do do, then trust. And I'm really in the thick of that at the moment, which is, first you have to trust, and then you push a button and publish, or you push a button on, you know, your big bold declaration, and then you done it. And then you go, Okay, I've done that now. Oh shit, I've done that now and and then something happens that it's internalized and accepted by your brain. You know that whole cognitive dissonance, dissonance thing. So your brain just goes, it just accepts it and go, Okay, that's what you're doing now. Okay, so let's go. Very interesting. So, and then, so I go, trust than do. So I trusted, then I did. And now what the stage I'm in is I'm in the doing. I have to act, I have to do, then trust again. Okay, so it's, how does that feel? Yeah, it's, it fits.
Shelley Rostlund 29:58
It fits. That's good. I. Yeah, it's good reassurance, isn't it? You got a good gut, though?
Finola Howard 30:05
Yeah, I don't think there was any other option. It's like it was all always going to be like this. There
Shelley Rostlund 30:11
was no love. It's
Shelley Rostlund 30:16
done. We're all watching now. Yeah, that doesn't make me feel bad.
Shelley Rostlund 30:23
So, well, you need accountability, don't you? You know you're gonna do it, but it helps having accountability and people on the way with you, you know.
Finola Howard 30:31
So So for me, like I always felt that joy as a compass piece, right? And now my positioning is different. So I would have positioned myself as over the years, because it changes. Marketer, strategic marketer, intuitive marketer. I can't even remember the amount of positionings that would have shifted as I evolved as a human, you know? And now it's like, and so then it was about joyful growth. And now it's like, you know, I'm really leaning into it. I'm really proving it now. So it is that it's embedded, that joy must be the measure of every decision in the business. And it comes from that idea of, you know, the big leap with Gay Hendricks and stuff. Of you know that you know if you're doing for me, it's if you're doing your best work, you joy is the indicator. I'm doing my best work. I'm in flow, I'm joyful when everywhere that I'm happy and joyful, and that means I'm at my best. I'm not going to be at my best if I'm miserable. Now, I'm sure there are theories that discount that, because there are a lot of depressed musicians like Mozart, or some of those were depressed, weren't they? I didn't get paid
Shelley Rostlund 31:40
very much after their death.
Finola Howard 31:45
Okay, if you were advising me, as you know, in this area of, because you work with so many subject matter experts, and it's not just advising me, I'm kind of advising the listeners who are also kind of living this journey of because it's bandied around so much of next level business, Next Level I bandied around myself. So what are the things that we can look at as knowledge workers, as you so succinctly put it, that we should look at, do we do we ask ourselves, Am I a visionary? Do we say, well, what the hell does that mean? How do I make that happen? Or what? What are your thoughts of what you would say to me, of what advice you'd give to me or the listeners?
Shelley Rostlund 32:29
I think I'll take this back to marketable value, because I think always start with us, with clients, because they they tend to you probably find this as well, that when they first come to you, say, right, explain to me what it is that you do or like, where you see yourself in the marketplace. And I'll start with skills that I do this thing, and there'll be this list of these technical skills, right? But when it comes to this stuff that you're talking about, you know, technical skills is not what's going to cut it. Technical skills are not the thing that is going to make you stand out. So you've got to look at this element of your, yes, your technical skills, or your aptitude. But then if you think about in terms of curves, right? So that's the bottom curve, like a little mountain at the bottom, that's your aptitude. Then you look at a curve that's maybe, you know, however big a gap, because depends how long you've been in business, as to the curve above it, so long there's a Mount Everest. But basically the distance between those two heights you've got your proficiency, and that's all your years in business. It's everything, all your experience, that you've done, the clients you've worked on. It's your personality, it's your nuances, it's your approach. Everything is in that kind of proficiency curve. So the element we've got to focus on as subject matter experts, and then in thought leading visionaries, is this marketable value, which is the difference between that proficiency curve and the aptitude curve. Because if you constantly just talk about your technical skills, it's not enough, you know. So Michael, hi, it's quote. What was it about aptitude signals skill alone, but proficiency signals skill plus contribution. If you can work out what your contribution is to the solution or the problem that you solve, or to the world that other people see the value in that's actually your hotspot. That's the bit that you're supposed to be focusing on when you're talking about it. So I think you first got to do that work, you know, to figure out what is your marketing value. What is the thing that makes you good at what you do, but makes you quite unique in being as you you know this is pure positioning work anyway, but I but I think this next level is an interest along with scale. It's a phrase I really dislike. Next level is really different for everybody. So as long as your next level, like you say, fits, I think next level definitely needs. Needs to challenge you. It can't be in your comfort zone. It's got to push out that comfort zone into the discomfort zone. I think as long as you're getting into spaces where you don't know what you don't know, I feel like you're stretching yourself. So next level needs to tick a couple of boxes for me in terms of that. So I think, but we've already said being visible is really important. Finola, so next level will be okay, re looking at all the things that you're doing at the moment, and visible doesn't necessarily need to be literally visually visible. It can mean auditory like we are on a podcast. Now, if you are not a fan of camera, then just think of other ways where you could be visible, and that can be you contributing to articles in magazines that are pushing the boundaries in terms of thought, leading aspects within your industry, get in there, get your voice heard, you know, so you could be doing it writing. It's just making sure that you are pushing the boundaries of, you know, where, where you not in at the moment, but you know is going to make a difference. Make a difference. So if that's helpful,
Finola Howard 36:06
really helpful, because you got to remind me, I've got to stay outside my comfort zone, but strategically, yeah, so when I'm yeah, like, it's really important that every everything at this point, and I've noticed that in myself, that it's really the mindset of, I mean, I did a, you know, you do all this stuff of, let me think about, what does it take to be a million euro business, what's the mindset that I have? And it's, it's really challenging, and thinking about the strategy behind everything. So it's where will I place my energy? I think about that strategically, where are my boundaries going to be set? Where are the things that I'm uncomfortable that I need to lean into? What is the stuff I need to do that will bring me outside of my comfort zone? But I've got to address it in a way that makes sense uncomfortable, not just discomfort for discomfort sake. Discomfort, for expansions sake.
Shelley Rostlund 37:03
Yeah, not discomfort, painful. Okay, let's not do that, but it's discomfort, yeah, in a in a growing state, you know? And as we get older, that gets harder and harder, so you almost have to push yourself harder.
Finola Howard 37:17
I think it's easier. I think it's easier because we're Yeah, because we're aware of what uncomfortable means, and we choose to either do it or not.
Shelley Rostlund 37:30
Russ got to choose where you said no to yeah as well. And people pleasing, you know that 101 situation,
Finola Howard 37:40
you had some really good things in your episode, which was the thought leaders toolbox. Ah, so I think it's a good place to leave people on with, you know. So will you share,
Shelley Rostlund 37:52
please? Okay, so when I was trying to figure out this whole element, well, how do we identify if we are a thought leading expert. I just thought about the things that, for me, made somebody that was one, a very good subject matter expert. But number two, that creme de la creme, they are the thought leading so I decided there were these five, bear with me, folks. They may not make sense
Shelley Rostlund 38:15
metaphorically.
Shelley Rostlund 38:19
So pretend there's a toolbox. Okay? You'll get used to Shelly. The first thing is a sponge. And I know Finola, you'll definitely agree with this one. And being a sponge means you've got that beginner's mindset to learning, being curious, having an open mind. It's really, really key for a thought leader, right? Someone who gets just really stuck in the thought that they know everything. That's pretty dangerous for me. I feel like they're already dangerous. They need to be open to new information and ideas, which is key, okay, so as a sponge. Second thing is a Swiss army knife. But this represents communication skills, okay? I think that you know, it's so important to be, especially if you're thought leading, and some of the thoughts you're having are going to make a huge, huge difference or a change to your industry or to climate or to the world or to society, you need to be really, really good about how you articulate information and how You actually get those messages across, so that people, you know, can really understand where you're going. You know, he said Rory. Rory Sutherland was at atomicon this year, and he said, out there, he said, You can't always change the world, but what you can do is try and change the way people think about something. And if you've got really good communication skills, and you can simplify your messages that people get it, they will be the ones that will be able to install that change. So that's quite key. And then your third thing is a thermometer. Now this is little tongue in cheek, right? So I feel like this is a human thermometer. So you know that, but you're talking about self awareness, right? For me, this is about being. Highly tuned to that macro picture of humanity, the world, technology, you know, and also that micro, those micro pictures of nuance, you know, we talked about context and how that's really important as well. I feel like you do need to just keep having that, you know, emotional intelligence, thermometer of knowing what's going on in the world. The fourth thing is a radar. Do we still have these? I'm not sure. I was watching impossible. It was still in there.
Finola Howard 40:27
Oh, I haven't seen it
Shelley Rostlund 40:30
yet. I want to see very good. No spoilers. Okay, it was running. So a radar, so this one is basically just represents exactly what a radar is, and that's where you're actually able to almost predict big things that are coming. So this is the bit where I feel like thought leaders do almost have a seismic connection, almost like, you know, the earthquakes that are coming, you could almost feel things are going on, like, there's winds of change going on. They've got this radar. They're able to pick up, you know, you'll see, like, even Simon Sinek is quite good at this. You know, where he'll go. Just think of an industrial revolution. And then he'll talk about this. And then I was like, oh my goodness, yes, he's right. All these things are connected. They're in a cycle. Generally, a thought leading expert or a visionary will have that skill. And then the last one, and this is the one that has managed to tip off people and take them off my list, which I love, yeah, is the fire blanket. It's not very sexy, but it's very useful, right? So fire blanket just basically means that their ability to handle crisis, I think, the metal of someone and how they are as people. It comes out when there's crisis and when things are going wrong and the fire is burning. That's when you really get to the crux of whether somebody is a good human, whether actually all the things that they've been talking about are actually true, and they come through when they're in crisis. So I think if you can handle yourself well in crisis, whatever that is, you are a good thought leading visionary. And there we go. That's our five. Here's
Finola Howard 42:10
a question for you, do you think that those five ingredients in your toolbox? Yeah, are the nature versus nurture argument? Are they? Are they natural to somebody? Is it that they're born with that, or is it nurtured within them?
Shelley Rostlund 42:28
I think some of it is born. I mean, if you were a really terrible toddler, you did not handle crisis well, and you never learned how to that's your mom's fault. She should. Maybe that's, I think, some of the stuff you have to learn over time. This is why, I think, like with subject matter experts as well as thought leaders, you don't become these things overnight. We're talking about time and space. You know, you need a period of time and a journey of gaining knowledge, of getting better and of getting, you know, you always be a good human. But actually, like your SWAMI knife, for example, you you may only have three of the how many knives are in a Swiss Army, it depends
Speaker 1 43:10
as many as you want, as many as you want, right? You'll have
Shelley Rostlund 43:13
some of them naturally. But actually, you probably have to learn a lot, especially like if you say, you know, going to those next level situations, you probably have to learn even better communication skills and sharper things that weren't necessarily as important in your day to day with clients, but as soon as you're actually getting into different spaces where maybe you're even being asked to get on a council, a government Council, to help advise on, I don't know spacecraft. You will have to learn diplomacy. You will have to learn what a poker face is, which I do not, and I will not be advising NASA. So I think some of that, do you see what I mean? Like almost if you do up, goes next level. You just got to know that maybe there's some of these tools that you you'll have to gain a little more training on or be aware of them. But
Finola Howard 44:04
it's kind of interesting because it's, it means it's, uh, as as you grow in your business, like this is, I'm thinking listeners now, as you grow in your business, and also myself, yeah, that it's, this is the our barometer at each point So at each level of our business. And we know when we take leaps to grow, it's like, where do I need to support? Which ones do I need to support now? Which ones do I need to up level now to get me to this next level? That's what I'm taking from it. Yeah, what would you like to leave people with today? Shelley,
Shelley Rostlund 44:36
I think that's better about having to reinvent yourself. It's it's not a new thing. But I think we all have to really, really pay serious attention to the fact that you've got such a big, seismic change coming in the world now. You can't fight it. You can't pretend it's not coming. It's coming. And if you don't pay attention, honestly, the next. Two to five years is really going to determine the length that you will be in your current career, whatever that is. So as a human, you do need to do this work like you're talking about now. You know you potentially have to start working on this toolkit if you actually, if you actually do want to next level, if you do want to grow, if you do want to
Finola Howard 45:19
whatever it is that you want to do. But you're saying, if we do want to survive, I think
Shelley Rostlund 45:23
it's more about survival more than anything else, you know, and think big corporates have to watch out, because I feel like this has been coming for a while, and I've been waiting for it, unethical practices of how, how many just keeps an engine going that actually has a very broken engine that I'm really hoping is going to balance over time? And smaller businesses, particularly micro businesses, are going to become even more important a smaller, tight run, you know, Max 10 people, that is going to be the future. So make sure you're ready. I love it. Thank
Finola Howard 46:03
you so much, Shelley. Okay, vanilla, and that's it for this episode. Everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Make sure to connect with Shelley on LinkedIn and check out the article she wrote on this topic. It's worth a read, and I'll post it in the show notes. Thank you for listening to your truth shared. If you enjoyed this episode, please do rate and review it in your favorite app, at love the podcast.com/your. Truth shared. It really does help spread the word and help me continue to invest in this podcast. You.
